8.865 9.440 MICHAEL: .. Hm. 9.380 10.236 .. (TSK) yeah. 10.236 12.574 JIM: ... And even if I go out and a=sk for it. 12.574 12.808 you know, 12.808 13.216 I say, 13.216 14.192 . 14.212 15.549 .. I won't feel guilty. 15.549 17.247 ... <% I really won't %>. 17.247 18.751 .. It's just a set of instructions, 18.815 19.730 I used to program. 19.730 20.590 (H) a little bit, 20.590 21.045 and, 21.045 22.510 (H) a=nd u=m, 22.510 25.715 ... (TSK) (H) those guys have so much fun writing those programs. 25.710 26.885 ... you know, 26.885 27.465 .. that's the% -- 27.465 28.610 ... I think that's= -- 28.610 29.205 .. [that's pretty -- 28.720 29.390 MICHAEL: [(TSK) (H) Yeah well, 29.175 30.560 JIM: % That's pretty much the end of it]. 29.395 31.780 MICHAEL: creative people generally] do what they love [2to do2]. 31.285 32.140 JIM: [2(H)2] Yeah, 32.140 32.635 right. 32.595 35.955 .. And that's pretty much the end of the truthful part of the process. 35.955 37.990 (H) The rest of it is all m=arketing. 37.990 38.555 MICHAEL: .. Hm. 38.555 40.380 JIM: and the marketplace is uh, 40.380 40.865 .. you know, 40.865 43.030 .. maybe I think I live in Tangiers. 43.030 43.875 (H)= you know? 43.875 45.895 .. Maybe I think the marketplace is [uh], 45.560 45.865 MICHAEL [@] 45.865 47.480 JIM: (H) you get what you can get. 47.480 48.200 MICHAEL: .. yeah. 48.200 49.675 JIM: ... (Hx) .. Uh=, 49.675 51.985 ... (H) seems to be that way. 51.985 52.295 you know, 52.295 54.490 I- as long as I'm not hurting another person directly, 54.490 54.865 (H) 54.865 55.295 MICHAEL: Right. 55.295 55.725 JIM: .. You know? 55.725 57.120 or even indirectly. 57.120 59.725 ... (H) but just throwing my money out there, 59.725 60.950 he may never see a penny of it. 60.950 62.160 he may have sold the rights. 62.160 63.260 (H) @@@ 63.260 63.830 outright. 63.830 64.585 [(H) @You @know? 64.230 65.730 MICHAEL: [@@@ (H) 64.545 64.805 JIM: (H) @@@@] 64.805 66.210 That certainly happens in] music, 66.210 67.795 JIM: (H) @Heavens @ye=s. 67.795 68.680 [%I-] %yeah. 68.070 68.615 MICHAEL: [Yeah]. 68.680 69.120 JIM: .. You know? 69.120 70.885 I mean it .. happens all over the [place]. 70.520 71.375 MICHAEL: You know I wish] I was, 71.375 71.580 uh, 71.580 72.255 the person=, 72.255 74.270 .. whose voice they used in the .. telephone, 74.270 75.180 when it tells you, 75.180 76.945 ... the number has been changed, 76.945 78.365 .. (H) And that I had uh, 78.365 79.070 copyright, 79.070 79.470 @@ 79.470 80.255 get some royalties. 80.255 80.430 Like, 80.430 81.380 (H) that lady, 81.380 81.700 you know, 81.700 82.315 h- you hear, 82.315 84.000 (H) ... ]. 84.670 85.800 JIM: [they got a different woman], 85.800 86.315 didn't they. 86.315 86.725 MICHAEL: .. Hunh? 87.360 88.060 86.725 87.905 JIM: didn't they get a diffe[rent woman]? 88.040 89.240 .. When she th- tried to do that? 89.240 90.340 MICHAEL: [I don't know if they did]. 89.240 89.575 JIM: [they, 89.575 89.875 they, 89.875 91.195 they hired an]other voice. 91.095 92.280 MICHAEL: I didn't hear any follow-up. 92.280 92.580 but, 92.580 94.120 JIM: that's what I thought that they did any[ways]. 93.790 94.120 MICHAEL: [Yeah]? 94.120 95.025 ... hunh. 94.955 97.660 ... they certainly u=se her a lot. 97.660 98.560 ... But I mean it- -- 98.560 99.190 they only use, 99.190 99.400 what. 99.400 99.930 a s- % -- 99.930 101.575 five seconds total or something? 101.575 101.845 You know, 101.850 102.300 it's a- -- 102.300 103.160 .. (H)[=] 102.380 104.280 JIM: [(TSK) Probably took her] a lo=ng time= to, 104.280 107.085 .. (H) (TSK) to say every possible combination. 107.085 107.750 MICHAEL: (H) oh but, 107.750 108.120 %they -- 108.120 108.990 %the computer does that. 108.990 110.895 All she has to do is say= each digit. 110.895 111.940 .. and the [computer, 111.280 112.195 JIM: [Oh that's all it is. 112.020 112.285 MICHAEL: .. Yeah. 112.285 113.715 .. it's like a series of samples]. 112.345 113.920 JIM: .. And it automatically sorts] em. 113.920 114.335 MICHAEL: .. [2Unhunh2]., 113.945 114.335 JIM: [2Yeah2]. 114.335 114.655 MICHAEL: right. 114.655 115.105 yeah. 115.105 116.470 .. (H) so it's, 116.470 120.510 .. (H) .. Probably the total actual .. s- speaking that they use, 120.510 121.350 is pretty short. 121.350 127.255 ... It would be much more pleasant if they had done all the combinations though. 127.255 129.390 ... (H) .. You know, 129.390 129.875 call it up, 129.875 132.395 and there's something that actually .. says your number, 132.395 133.335 .. in toto, 133.335 134.125 .. [You know @@]? 133.425 133.925 JIM: [Yeah=. 133.925 134.130 Or], 134.130 136.430 because it recognizes your phone number, 136.430 137.915 it automatically goes into the computer, 137.925 138.645 finds that, 138.645 139.090 MICHAEL: [Yeah, 138.805 139.090 JIM: [and -- 139.090 139.970 a and names the] na=me, 138.910 139.760 MICHAEL: that sample]. 139.970 142.430 JIM: (H)= ... . 143.790 144.785 [@@@] 143.890 144.185 MICHAEL: [yeah, 144.185 144.580 right. 144.580 144.990 You @know, 144.990 146.285 @@@ (H)] 144.780 147.595 JIM: . 147.595 148.060 (H) 148.060 148.960 MICHAEL: [That'd be great. 148.050 149.080 JIM: [@ (H) 149.080 150.215 MICHAEL: @@@@@] 149.080 149.815 JIM: Q> -- 153.545 153.920 MICHAEL: [@ (H) 153.920 154.940 My phone number -- 153.935 155.470 JIM: you know have dinner3] with me, 155.470 156.105 push three, 155.095 156.270 MICHAEL: (H) @ (H)] 156.105 157.050 JIM: if you] want to uh, 157.050 157.905 (H)[= 0h] -- 157.525 159.430 MICHAEL: [@ Artif]icial intelligence personality, 159.430 160.415 that you [2call up2], 159.805 160.695 JIM: [2@Yeah @2] @so, 160.695 162.405 (H) . 170.580 171.390 (H) @@[@] 171.010 171.365 MICHAEL: [@] 171.365 172.805 JIM: .. @ .. @ 172.805 176.795 .. (H) % well the networking of computers is getting uh s=uch that, 176.795 177.490 .. you know, 177.490 179.415 ... (TSK) almost anything's possible. 179.415 180.355 .. (H) [Any XX -- 180.045 180.355 MICHAEL: [Yeah, 180.355 181.275 that's why I= .. ]. 180.615 181.810 JIM: It's just matrix]ing, 181.810 182.065 and, 182.065 182.780 (H) just, 182.780 183.925 con- constantly, 183.925 184.790 building and building, 184.790 186.335 u=pon building upon building, 186.335 187.285 on these complexities, 187.290 189.025 and build[ing controllers for] the=m, 187.760 188.475 MICHAEL: [That's right, 188.370 188.585 ], 189.025 190.485 JIM: and building on top of those. 190.485 192.725 MICHAEL: [And you're building on the] thoughts of th- your predecessors, 190.485 191.330 JIM: [(H)] 192.725 193.550 MICHAEL: but your predecessors, 193.550 194.190 in this case, 194.190 195.535 could be like .. last year. 195.535 196.540 JIM: (H)[=] 195.950 196.535 MICHAEL: [You know it's like], 196.540 197.955 it's [2moving2] so fast, 196.700 197.115 JIM: [2Oh2]. 197.935 198.670 [3So fast3]. 197.955 199.505 MICHAEL: [3(H)3] It's like [4a r-4] -- 198.890 199.505 JIM: [4(Hx)4]= 199.505 201.110 MICHAEL: It's a reflection of the brain, 201.110 203.415 ... and it's communication like books, 203.415 204.385 but it's much quicker. 204.385 205.860 ... [And it's like], 205.255 205.885 JIM: [ when they get] -- 205.860 207.490 MICHAEL: if you can think of something and define it, 207.490 208.955 you can= .. make it happen. 208.955 210.765 ... If it just about information. 210.740 211.525 210.765 211.525 .. [I mean you can't] -- 210.740 212.500 JIM: [(H) If it's just] about information, 212.500 213.310 [2that's very true2]. 212.500 212.770 MICHAEL: [2Yeah. 212.770 214.195 .. You can't2] conjure= something up, 214.195 215.730 ... like a car= out of nothing. 215.730 216.040 .. But, 216.040 217.060 ... (TSK) (H) 217.060 218.645 JIM: well with the superconductors, 218.645 219.340 ... uh, 219.340 220.290 .. that's gonna make it, 220.290 220.710 .. you know, 220.710 221.955 s=o economical, 221.955 222.535 MICHAEL: .. mhm. 222.535 223.485 JIM: for everybody, 223.485 224.140 .. to have, 224.140 225.585 .. all the electronic, 225.585 226.795 .. this and that that they want, 226.795 229.190 because there'll be so little loss of electricity, 229.190 230.180 MICHAEL: .. (TSK) Yeah=. 230.180 231.225 .. [And it'll be small]=. 230.285 231.040 JIM: [You know and it] -- 231.225 232.365 .. It'll be f- so small, 232.365 233.705 that we'll have enormous amount- -- 233.705 233.950 uh% -- 233.950 236.590 we should have an enormous ... supply of it, 236.590 237.540 MICHAEL: .. (H) yeah like, 237.540 240.275 every light switch will have its own computer or something you know. 240.275 240.800 .. Basically, 240.800 242.225 because it'll be cheap enough that, 242.225 245.140 ... cheap as a switch these [days or something, 244.385 245.420 JIM: [it won't cost anything]. 245.140 245.460 MICHAEL: you know]? 245.420 245.645 JIM: ky- -- 245.645 245.855 and it -- 245.855 247.260 %and when they go into outer space, 247.260 249.110 and start growing this .. thi- those uh, 249.110 251.560 (H) silicon chips without any flaw=s, 251.560 251.950 MICHAEL: [Hm]. 251.560 253.195 JIM: [(H)] they'll be able to uh, 253.195 255.565 .. grow circuitry that is so complicated, 255.565 256.145 (H) that, 256.145 256.825 .. you know, 256.825 258.545 ... that gravity destroy=s it. 258.545 259.785 so they'll be [able] to uh, 259.035 259.335 MICHAEL: [Hm]. 259.780 260.330 JIM: (H) [2uh2], 259.935 260.330 MICHAEL: [2Yeah2]. 260.330 260.695 JIM: % to- -- 260.695 264.040 i- they'll be able to get these fanta=stic uh= c=ircuits, 264.040 265.915 (H) f- like say for a whole television set, 265.915 266.990 just on one chip. 266.990 268.565 .. (H) [A=nd uh=] 267.365 268.565 MICHAEL: [(H) @@] 268.565 269.610 JIM: ... uh=, 269.610 270.850 and then it'll harden out there, 270.850 271.740 and k- they'll bring it back. 271.740 273.325 ... (H) %a- .. uh, 273.325 274.365 the whole [thing is] s=, 273.670 274.365 MICHAEL: [(Hx)] 274.365 274.785 JIM: is s=, 274.785 276.000 .. is so sensational. 276.000 278.080 MICHAEL: ... (TSK) That'll be expensive at first. 278.075 279.125 JIM: ... God. 279.125 279.655 But [can you] -- 279.265 280.300 MICHAEL: [growing em] in space, 280.300 281.020 [2but that's2] great. 280.320 280.645 JIM: [2yeah2]. 281.020 281.410 it'll -- 281.410 282.085 it'll uh, 282.085 284.380 ... [it'll] be worth it. 283.625 283.945 MICHAEL: [In] -- 284.380 288.260 (H) ... This technology out of m=ost of, 288.260 288.790 .. uh m-, 288.790 289.775 .. anything in the pa=st, 289.775 290.390 ha- has m- -- 290.390 293.835 ... it's becoming like we're shaping our= ... our destiny, 293.835 294.645 ourselves. 294.645 296.170 ... u=m, 296.170 297.895 ... with this technology, 297.895 300.115 more than we have in % .. with any other in the past, 300.115 300.625 it seems. 300.625 302.165 (H)= .. just b_like, 302.150 303.345 whatever we think it b- % -- 303.345 304.885 .. we can .. make it. 304.885 307.020 .. (H) but there's one technology that's u=m, 307.020 307.955 .. gonna overtake that, 307.955 309.480 and that's D=NA research. 309.480 309.970 .. which is=, 309.970 310.235 like, 310.235 311.690 a total scam at this point, 311.690 312.225 still it's, 312.225 312.870 they're just like, 312.870 316.540 .. bombarding ... (H) 0rganisms with radiation, 316.540 317.520 to see what comes up. 317.520 318.490 ... (H) you know. 318.490 319.935 We have very little control over it. 319.935 320.980 .. But once we do=, 320.980 324.025 .. (H) we'll be able to progra=m biology as well. 324.025 326.665 JIM: .. (H) (TSK) Well tha=t's pretty frightening con[cept]. 326.185 327.665 MICHAEL: [(TSK) (H)] It is frightening but, 327.660 329.695 JIM: .. We [can't even] control our freeways. 328.005 328.520 MICHAEL: [um], 329.695 330.475 (H) I know=. 330.475 330.960 JIM: you know[=? 330.580 331.315 MICHAEL: [(H)] 330.905 331.315 JIM: I mean], 331.315 331.565 MICHAEL: but, 331.565 331.870 i- % -- 331.870 332.615 the thing is, 332.620 334.100 any s- technology that comes up, 334.100 334.930 it gets used. 334.930 336.130 ... Once it's out there in [the open], 336.130 336.615 JIM: [(H)] 336.615 337.045 MICHAEL: the- -- 337.045 337.610 JIM: Well [I hope] -- 337.160 338.960 MICHAEL: [the so]ciety [2as a- a whole2], 337.900 339.385 JIM: [2I hope they use fractals2]. 339.385 340.730 JIM: .. Are you familiar with fractals? 340.730 341.070 MICHAEL: Unhunh. 341.075 341.345 JIM: .. Yeah, 341.350 342.930 I hope they use a lot of fractals. 342.930 343.560 Be[cause f=-] -- 343.040 344.240 MICHAEL: [in biolo]gy re[2search2]? 343.840 344.195 JIM: [2%2] 344.195 344.650 % No. 344.650 345.035 But in=, 345.035 345.350 well, 345.350 347.890 the connection between mathematics and biology, 347.890 348.850 [can be] found k- -- 348.015 348.325 MICHAEL: [unhunh]. 348.850 349.190 JIM: uh, 349.190 350.600 m=ore easily with fractals, 350.595 352.755 than it can with uh [regular] mathematics. 351.535 351.890 MICHAEL: [Yeah]. 352.755 353.445 JIM: (H)[=]= 353.030 353.445 MICHAEL: [Yeah]. 353.445 354.025 JIM: ... So, 354.025 354.555 .. (H) you know, 354.555 356.300 I'm looking for the p- connection, 356.300 357.430 between science and, 357.430 359.100 (H) a=nd religion and, 359.100 360.690 .. and and [and bio]logy, 359.975 360.520 MICHAEL: [mhm]. 360.730 361.270 JIM: as it were, 361.270 361.530 ar- -- 361.530 361.885 th- you know, 361.885 363.195 the living as spiritual, 363.215 363.535 and the -- 363.535 364.090 and the=, 364.090 365.885 364.090 365.885 MICHAEL: [Like the ancient science were], 364.115 364.880 JIM: [and the sci- -- 364.880 365.900 and the scienti]fic, 365.900 366.440 .. [2Pardon2]? 366.070 366.440 MICHAEL: [2it was2], 366.445 367.690 like the ancient science, 367.690 369.545 it was just ... a branch of knowledge, 369.545 371.635 which is- included [all knowledge] basi[2cally. 370.335 371.000 JIM: [Alchemy]. 371.340 371.975 [2alchemy. 371.975 372.570 .. Right2]? 372.095 372.570 MICHAEL: (H) Unhunh2]. 372.570 373.400 JIM: (H) [3yeah. 372.580 373.495 MICHAEL: [3(H)= 373.495 374.775 Whatever gets3] the job done. 373.500 374.490 JIM: The- the-3] -- 374.665 375.355 the ge[4stalt4]. 374.970 375.405 MICHAEL: [4@4] 375.355 377.465 JIM: .. the totality i=s taken into account, 377.465 378.225 as opposed to, 378.225 380.155 (H) [as opposed] to the observer. 378.735 379.205 MICHAEL: [Right]. 380.155 380.785 JIM: (H) you know, 380.785 381.500 (H) I remember, 381.500 382.940 %m- back in the psychedelic days, 382.940 384.505 there was this poster of the scientist. 384.505 385.265 I've always been on a, 385.270 386.280 .. kind of a crusade, 386.280 387.650 % .. for scientific uh, 387.650 388.770 (H) responsibility. 388.770 389.090 Right? 389.090 390.345 (H) And scientists are, 390.345 393.090 (H) are taking such control over the world these days. 393.090 394.340 (H) uh with their n-, 394.340 394.640 .. you know, 394.640 395.430 not the scientists, 395.430 396.480 but what they've invented. 396.480 398.105 (H) And the way it's marketed, 398.105 398.780 and the way we're d- -- 398.780 400.140 .. we develop needs for it. 400.140 402.470 (H) And I remember this pf- cartoon I saw w-, 402.470 402.900 .. of, 402.900 403.380 .. of, 403.380 404.745 .. it was called The Scientist. 404.745 405.680 (H) and it had this, 405.680 407.865 .. this wonderful stone statue, 407.865 409.455 about twenty stories tall, 409.455 410.475 of a naked ma=n, 410.475 411.495 and a naked woman, 411.495 413.340 .. (H) intertwined with each other, 413.340 414.010 hugging each other, 414.010 414.700 full frontal, 414.700 416.250 and their arms wrapped around each other, 416.250 417.265 (H) and then they s- -- 417.265 418.495 .. they- they looked like they were so intertwined, 418.495 419.515 and they spiraled down and, 419.515 420.050 .. and they're a s- -- 420.050 421.025 .. they're a statue. 421.025 421.585 (H) [right], 421.305 421.585 MICHAEL: [Hm]. 421.585 422.525 JIM: made out of sto=ne. 422.525 422.835 and they're, 422.835 425.450 (H) and the whole b=ase of the statue is crumbling. 425.450 426.355 ... Right? 426.355 427.765 (H) And it's just like rubble=. 427.765 428.325 f- like from, 428.325 429.755 .. just below the knee=s, 429.755 430.340 (H) down, 430.340 431.365 was just kind of rubble. 431.365 433.115 but the rest of it was all real clear, 433.115 433.510 a few 0ttle -- 433.510 434.700 .. some of it was chipped off, 434.700 434.990 you know, 434.990 435.680 it was ol=d but, 435.680 436.500 (H) and d- -- 436.500 437.550 and down at the bo=ttom, 437.550 438.030 of this, 438.030 438.965 .. this rubble, 438.965 440.290 .. was this little m=an. 440.290 441.675 (H) who was a scientist. 441.675 443.600 And he had this big magnifying glass. 443.600 445.320 (H) and he was looking at the rubble. 445.320 446.770 Looking [with his] head down, 445.515 445.995 MICHAEL: [@] 446.770 447.185 .. Hm. 447.185 448.685 JIM: not looking up at the statue, 448.685 449.875 and seei=ng the lo=ve, 449.875 451.530 and the the- the- symbol there, 451.530 453.405 (H) but looking down at the crumbs, 453.405 454.335 (H) you [know], 453.925 454.335 MICHAEL: [Hm]. 454.335 455.650 JIM: (H) at the rubble at the bottom. 455.620 457.010 With his magnifying glass. 457.005 458.040 (H) .. an=d, 458.040 458.965 ... an=d, 458.965 459.765 .. to me that, 459.765 461.370 .. that always symbolized, 461.370 462.485 kind of rather clearly, 462.485 464.660 (H) the limitations of the scientific method. 464.660 465.575 (H) .. Whi- -- 465.575 467.135 if it doesn't take into account, 467.135 468.150 MICHAEL: ... well, 468.150 468.700 JIM: .. the .. to- -- 468.700 470.830 .. the the the whole human experience, 470.830 471.445 (H) and, 471.445 472.130 .. including, 472.130 474.575 (H) .. the .. unbelievable parts of it. 474.575 476.155 .. the parts that are just legend. 476.155 476.880 and myth. 476.880 477.180 and, 477.180 478.675 (H) .. a=nd uh=, 478.675 479.590 .. [alluded to=], 478.745 479.835 MICHAEL: [you mean the theories]. 479.635 479.920 JIM: and], 479.920 481.770 and the psychedelic experiences, 481.770 483.500 and the (H) subjec[tive], 482.980 483.125 MICHAEL: [oh, 483.125 483.700 on2] that side. 483.700 484.040 JIM: you know=, 484.040 484.985 and insanity=, 484.985 485.220 [and, 484.900 485.520 MICHAEL: [(H)=] 485.220 485.450 JIM: What, 485.450 485.755 I] mean, 485.755 486.215 MICHAEL: [2well2], 485.745 486.215 JIM: [2you know they2] -- 486.215 486.715 MICHAEL: ... % 486.715 488.245 JIM: They've got to take ac- into account, 488.245 488.725 MICHAEL: [%(Hx)] 488.245 488.870 JIM: [(H)] uh, 488.870 489.060 MICHAEL: but, 489.060 489.680 .. [you can't], 489.060 490.065 JIM: [the East], 490.065 490.725 with all its, 490.725 492.910 with all its fantas[tic discoveries]. 491.775 494.450 MICHAEL: [but you can't look] at the stars with a microscope. 494.500 496.825 ... (TSK) And science is a microscope. 496.825 498.820 ... Each .. p_scientist has their, 498.820 500.935 (H) ... their field of um, 500.935 502.055 ... experti=se, 502.055 503.025 .. and if they're gonna go, 503.025 505.190 .. if they're gonna stretch out far enough into the% -- 505.190 506.180 ... the unknown. 506.180 507.595 .. where they can find something new. 507.595 509.290 (H) They have to do it in a straight line. 509.290 510.255 They can't [do it, 509.645 510.255 JIM: [that's true]. 510.255 511.680 MICHAEL: (H)]= in all directions at once. 511.680 513.570 Because then you run into things that we already know. 513.570 516.285 .. (H) [So the problem is= communication between s-] -- 513.830 514.560 JIM: [but they're doing it, 514.555 515.950 .. they're doing it with mathematics. 515.950 516.265 Right]? 516.265 517.035 ... [2I mean2, 516.680 517.105 MICHAEL: [2Well, 517.105 517.665 JIM: n- .. no2. 517.045 517.550 MICHAEL: .. but the comm-2], 517.665 518.105 .. problem is, 518.105 520.325 .. communication between the branches of science. 520.325 520.780 JIM: .. [mhm]. 520.315 520.780 MICHAEL: [I think]. 520.780 521.475 JIM: .. (TSK) that's [2true2]. 521.020 521.390 MICHAEL: [2cause2], 521.390 523.190 (H) who's gonna .. be able to hold, 523.190 524.005 all that knowledge, 524.005 525.135 and make the connections. 525.135 526.355 JIM: ... (H) Well, 526.355 527.425 the philosopher=s, 527.425 529.045 and the= spiritual leaders, 529.045 529.485 an=d, 529.485 529.805 I mean, 529.805 530.105 cause, 530.105 531.595 .. f- the stuff can be understand, 531.595 532.300 .. understood, 532.300 533.050 ... The [goa=ls, 533.050 534.375 MICHAEL: [(H) .. Those people can tell you=], 533.050 533.485 JIM: or the, 533.485 534.310 .. or the cutting -- 534.310 534.845 cutting] edge, 534.845 535.685 can be understand -- 535.685 537.220 .. understood intellectually, 537.220 537.495 (H)[=] 537.390 539.185 MICHAEL: [but] those people can't tell you the details. 539.185 540.270 .. they know the whole structure, 540.270 540.705 [but see], 540.290 540.705 JIM: [well the] -- 540.705 541.485 MICHAEL: it's like both sides. 541.485 543.200 You have to have somebody looking at the [details, 542.760 543.950 JIM: [%y- got to have a leader, 543.200 544.410 MICHAEL: and somebody looking at the -- 544.410 544.785 (H)] 543.950 544.720 JIM: and you got to have], 544.720 545.570 a bunch of workers. 545.570 546.550 (H) [You know]? 546.020 546.550 MICHAEL: [Yeah]. 546.550 547.725 JIM: .. A[2=nd you gotta2] have somebody, 546.940 547.370 MICHAEL: [2right2]. 547.725 550.950 JIM: who d_isn't necessarily inclined to deal with the details that mu=ch, 550.950 552.465 (H) who's guiding, 552.465 554.230 those who are willing [to sit there, 553.705 554.775 MICHAEL: [I guess that's the problem, 554.230 555.260 JIM: .. and make all the] -- 554.775 555.730 MICHAEL: we don't have a] guider. 555.725 556.585 JIM: .. (H) yeah. 556.585 557.060 there's no l-, 557.060 557.675 there's no lead, 557.675 558.860 or [there's no] focus. 557.810 558.315 MICHAEL: [yeah]. 558.860 559.750 JIM: (H) [2and2] -- 559.160 559.750 MICHAEL: [2That's right2]. 559.750 560.855 JIM: .. a=nd uh, 560.855 561.365 .. you know, 561.365 561.815 .. I think, 561.815 562.595 ... I think that, 562.595 565.350 .. one of the reasons that there's been no focus is because, 565.350 566.595 (H) .. 0h, 566.595 570.540 everybody accepted the scientific method as the best too=l that we ha=ve, 570.540 573.470 [(H) And] was kinda letting the scientific method be the -- 570.695 571.110 MICHAEL: [Mhm]. 573.470 574.265 JIM: .. be the leader. 574.265 575.120 (H) The= -- 575.120 575.750 the- w- you know, 575.750 577.695 .. [just continue inventorying and], 576.080 577.890 MICHAEL: [Well those people who are doing re]search. 577.890 579.110 JIM: .. continue inventorying, 579.110 579.835 cataloging, 579.835 580.985 %_experimenting, 580.985 582.680 ... You know. 582.680 584.390 ...(TSK) documenting. 584.390 585.745 ... uh=, 585.745 587.090 ... uh=, 587.090 587.830 whatever. 587.830 588.600 (H) and, 588.600 589.210 instead of=, 589.210 590.495 .. instead of uh, 590.495 593.065 ... uh coming at it from another direction. 593.065 593.950 Trying to find, 593.950 594.940 .. trying to find, 594.940 595.630 .. uh, 595.630 598.705 ... trying to find way=s to, 598.705 599.785 (H) to, 599.785 602.110 like .. with .. with Einstein for example, 602.110 602.500 you know, 602.500 603.230 (H) uh, 603.230 603.845 it seemed to me, 603.845 604.715 he was trying to f- -- 604.715 606.115 T_he was ex- .. per- -- 606.115 607.125 experimenting with, 607.125 609.025 (H) with new ways of doing things, 609.025 609.400 you know, 609.400 610.630 MICHAEL: [ thinking] about things. 609.475 610.205 JIM: [(H) 0h-] -- 610.610 611.735 uh and thinking about things, 611.735 612.410 and he was trying to -- 612.400 612.640 he w- -- 612.645 614.150 I think he was ultimately trying to, 614.150 616.535 ... trying to discover the speed of his own thought. 616.535 617.130 .. (H) 617.130 617.455 MICHAEL: Hm. 617.250 617.770 JIM: You know, 617.985 618.350 (H) , 618.350 619.075 %= he was like, 619.075 621.485 really off into wonderful abstract notions, 621.485 623.980 that [were all based] in a peaceful ... world. 621.635 622.250 MICHAEL: [(H)] 623.980 624.540 JIM: You know? 624.540 626.615 (H) that couldn't exist unless he was secure. 626.615 627.810 that we had a peaceful world. 627.810 629.980 or that .. that .. peace .. was (H) part of it. 629.980 631.690 Of ... what he was .. abou=t. 631.690 632.765 (H) and, 632.765 635.290 (H) so much of today's technology is soulless. 635.290 636.425 and has nothing to do with peace, 636.425 637.150 it has to do with, 637.150 638.580 (H) just generally, 638.580 639.190 .. chewing up, 639.190 639.645 .. you know, 639.650 641.150 consumerism basical[ly and], 640.705 641.150 MICHAEL: [Mhm]. 641.130 642.355 JIM: (H) .. chewing up -- 642.355 643.385 ... ch- n- -- 643.385 644.370 j- chewing up .. new w- -- 644.370 644.720 uh, 644.720 646.220 chewing up the human experience, 646.220 647.265 and turning it into, 647.265 649.010 (H) some kind of consumer need. 649.010 650.390 MICHAEL: .. Did you ever get into Tesla? 650.390 651.625 JIM: .. (H) uh=, 651.620 652.030 just, 652.030 653.590 0.000000e+00ver so peripherally. 653.590 657.735 MICHAEL: .. He had a lot of real .. wacky ideas on .. big levels. 657.735 659.385 He wanted a world power system, 659.385 661.090 (H) that you could um, 661.090 662.855 ... tap into the air basically, 662.855 664.305 and get power anywhere on earth. 664.305 666.340 ... (H) and um, 666.340 667.410 .. (H)[= y-] -- 666.940 668.695 JIM: [that's what the] Tesla coil was about? 668.695 669.265 MICHAEL: Yeah. 669.265 669.650 .. but, 669.650 670.435 e- the problem was, 670.435 670.765 that it, 670.765 671.380 .. it uh, 671.380 673.630 (H) it interfered with um, 673.630 676.840 (SWALLOW) ... well, 676.840 677.255 matter. 677.255 677.925 @ @I mean, 677.925 678.180 y- -- 678.180 679.945 it was n=ot a clean broadcast system. 679.945 681.055 Like everything in the room, 681.055 682.860 if you had a Tesla coil in the middle of the room, 682.860 685.690 all the metal objects would be receiving it constant[ly]. 685.185 685.690 JIM: [M]hm. 685.690 686.790 MICHAEL: (H)= So, 686.790 688.730 .. it wasn't really a very efficient either. 688.730 689.780 .. Because you'd have to have a- -- 689.780 692.225 (H) an immense amount of power being broadcast, 692.225 692.590 so that, 692.590 693.995 a few points could receive, 693.995 694.460 .. you know, 694.460 695.225 their share of it. 695.225 696.360 ... (TSK) [(H)] 696.060 696.570 JIM: [now what] about, 696.570 697.095 if they -- 697.095 698.225 0- with the superconductor. 698.225 699.310 Will that change all that? 699.310 701.330 MICHAEL: ... (TSK) I don't know. 701.330 704.615 .. He was dealing with it being ... basically energy, 704.615 705.765 and being sent through the air, 705.765 706.225 uh you know=, 706.225 706.995 like light, 706.995 707.510 JIM: like, 707.510 707.960 .. yeah. 707.970 710.275 Like tapping right into just the energy of the earth, 710.275 710.945 or something. 710.945 711.445 []. 710.950 711.445 MICHAEL: [yeah]. 711.445 713.960 which doesn't really % .. [2require2] a conductor. 712.810 713.280 JIM: [2yeah may-2] -- 713.960 714.905 MICHAEL: ... you know, 714.905 716.540 I mean light will go through a vacuum. 716.540 718.415 ... So, 718.415 719.445 .. % I think he was, 719.445 722.035 .. (H) I mean he va- basically invented the radio, 722.035 723.210 .. <% and stuff like that, 723.210 723.515 you know %>. 723.515 724.930 ... (H) 724.930 727.515 JIM: (H) It's pretty confusing to me (Hx). 727.515 728.090 but uh, 728.090 728.405 .. yeah, 728.405 731.245 those .. those guys are the guys I think that are the heroes, 731.245 731.550 uh, 731.550 731.780 or, 731.780 733.275 .. that are the unsung heroes. 733.275 733.515 (H) 733.515 733.890 MICHAEL: yeah. 733.890 734.300 JIM: You know, 734.300 734.660 .. the r- -- 734.660 735.330 the= uh, 735.330 736.030 (H) and s- -- 736.030 737.805 and and business and, 737.805 738.845 I mean this is a cliche, 738.845 739.050 but, 739.050 741.025 but business has always uh, 741.025 742.890 ... taken these works, 742.890 743.205 and, 743.205 744.700 .. and manipulated em, 744.700 745.115 either, 745.115 746.570 ... to their benefit, 746.570 746.895 or, 746.895 748.585 ... to our benefit, 748.585 749.405 or to our detriment, 749.405 749.805 or something, 749.805 750.995 f- based on economic, 750.995 753.445 (H) .. wh- .. what the obvious, 753.445 753.780 or the & 753.780 754.060 MICHAEL: hm. 754.060 755.635 JIM: & more immediate econo[mic] -- 755.315 755.890 MICHAEL: [(TSK) Right]. 755.890 756.255 .. it's like, 756.255 756.580 well, 756.580 756.890 .. gee, 756.890 757.040 yeah, 757.040 757.330 I know 757.330 758.855 I know how we can make money with this. 758.855 760.615 ... I mean you just do it. 760.615 761.115 JIM: yeah. 761.115 763.060 .. (H) that's what I like about fractals. 763.060 764.080 is because uh, 764.080 765.125 (H) uh, 765.090 769.250 ... with= these new mathematical ... formulas, 769.250 769.630 (H)[= 769.355 769.815 MICHAEL: [mhm]. 769.630 770.280 JIM: even] though, 770.280 770.810 .. you know, 770.810 772.230 .. because it's mathematical, 772.230 772.505 and it -- 772.505 775.710 .. I- .. it has to work I guess with= (H) numbers in it. 775.710 777.175 .. somew- some way. 777.175 778.415 (H) uh, 778.415 779.975 .. it's opens a door into, 779.975 783.560 .. what appears to be all= the substance that's underneath the obvious. 783.560 784.955 (H) ... You know, 784.955 785.195 MICHAEL: [hm]. 784.955 785.295 JIM: [with] -- 785.295 787.395 if if regular math is the obvious, 787.395 788.340 (H) uh=, 788.340 789.765 .. these fractals seem to, 789.765 791.680 ... seem to represent, 791.680 793.470 .. everything= that numbers aren't. 793.470 795.545 (H) [a=nd uh that's=] -- 794.395 795.190 MICHAEL: [(TSK) Well, 795.190 796.335 something that] numbers aren't. 796.335 797.445 I don't think it's everything. 797.445 798.285 JIM: (TSK) not everything. 798.285 798.750 [but s- -- 798.285 798.955 MICHAEL: [cause there are t-], 798.750 799.765 JIM: but the first] window, 799.765 800.390 into that. 800.390 800.920 MICHAEL: .. yeah. 800.920 801.770 ... (H) well, 801.770 802.040 it -- 802.040 802.205 like -- 802.205 803.185 every theory is just like-, 803.185 804.255 % .. %_it's a window, 804.255 806.670 and it's also like a model of um .. reality, 806.670 807.810 and it's really not reality. 807.810 809.445 (H) And uh, 809.445 812.115 ... like a fractal can g=et really close at do- % -- 812.115 813.650 like describing growth patterns, 813.650 814.730 like a [plant or something. 813.805 814.415 JIM: [Yes. 814.415 814.880 .. Yes. 814.880 815.165 Right. 815.165 815.750 .. Right]. 815.165 815.750 MICHAEL: .. (H) Um], 815.750 816.040 but, 816.040 819.105 (H) it's still n- .. not the totality of a plant, 819.105 819.760 JIM: No it isn't, 819.760 820.535 by any stretch. 820.535 822.410 But for mathematics or for science, 822.410 822.930 it's the- -- 822.935 824.690 [it's an opportunity for them to -- 822.935 824.690 MICHAEL: [it's the cl=osest th=ing we have]. 824.690 825.205 JIM: (H)] to, 825.205 825.495 yeah. 825.495 826.790 To get closer to, 826.790 828.040 (H) to the ch=aos, 828.040 828.430 or the, 828.430 829.975 [or the order] of chaos, 828.405 829.270 MICHAEL: [Mhm]. 829.975 830.200 Uh, 830.155 831.640 (H) that exists uh, 831.640 834.640 (H) uh= %a- 0h %as subtext, 834.640 835.285 to our life, 835.285 836.830 to our experience on this planet. 836.830 837.310 And [when we're], 836.915 837.310 MICHAEL: [Mm]. 837.310 838.315 JIM: (H) and when we're say- -- 838.315 839.095 ... when we're going to, 839.095 839.645 (H) uh, 839.645 841.780 .. say blow up the first atomic bomb, 841.780 843.440 (H) and and and, 843.440 844.185 we don't bother, 844.185 845.590 to ask the American people, 845.590 846.755 or the people of the world, 846.755 848.355 if w- if if we mi=nd, 848.330 848.730 MICHAEL: [@] 848.360 848.955 JIM: [(H)] uh, 848.955 850.250 if there's a chance you know, 850.250 851.710 .. cause they didn't know for sure, 851.710 853.995 whether .. it would de[stroy the universe or not. 852.625 853.370 MICHAEL: [<@ Yeah. 853.370 853.995 (H) Or not @>. 853.995 854.360 @ 853.995 855.015 JIM: (H) And], 854.360 857.375 (H) It might] have started a chain reaction that just blew up [2the whole earth2]. 856.645 857.160 JIM: [2That's right2]. 857.160 860.045 And it might very well still have started that chain reaction. 860.045 862.000 And that it's all happening in fractal country, 862.000 862.860 (H) and it [has] -- 862.485 862.860 MICHAEL: [Aah]. 862.860 863.135 JIM: and it, 863.135 864.995 and it's manifesting itself in, 864.995 866.255 (H) in disharmony, 866.255 867.155 (H) uh, 867.155 867.675 .. in, 867.675 870.175 (H) .. in the .. deterioration of the planet. 870.175 871.670 We're all worried about the ozone, 871.670 872.885 we're all worried about the uh, 872.885 873.335 [(H)] 872.885 873.335 MICHAEL: [Hm]. 873.275 873.815 JIM: uh=, 873.820 875.635 (H) th- cancer is everywhere, 875.635 876.235 (H) [uh=], 875.785 878.055 MICHAEL: [so you're saying it] might have done the sa=me ba=d thing, 878.055 879.880 but in [a sort of more roundabout way=]. 878.320 879.280 JIM: [it's just that the uni- -- 879.280 882.190 except that the] universe is such a complex phenomenon, 882.190 882.880 that it's so deep, 882.880 883.485 it's f=or- -- 883.485 885.500 f- the fabric that we= are witnessing, 885.500 886.450 through m- science, 886.450 888.665 and through any known ability to understand, 888.665 889.030 MICHAEL: [Mm]. 888.665 890.900 JIM: [(H)] is just a thin shell from how deep, 890.900 893.655 (H) this phantasmagorical experience goes, 893.655 894.800 (H) and that when they did that, 894.800 896.895 it's possible that they started a chain reaction, 896.895 898.380 at such a subatomic level, 898.380 900.330 a sub sub sub [sub subatomic level, 899.140 900.680 MICHAEL: [it's gonna take a while to crumble]. 900.330 902.105 JIM: (H)] that it'll take a while before it, 902.105 902.435 .. it, 902.435 903.520 (H) it r=eally, 903.520 904.105 (H) you know, 904.105 905.960 .. vr- goes (ROAR)=, 905.960 906.300 you know, 906.300 907.770 and [just r=]=ips it apart. 906.635 907.050 MICHAEL: [Yeah]. 907.770 908.445 JIM: it might take, 908.445 910.030 (H) ... it might take, 910.030 911.000 .. %a- a few th- -- 911.000 912.535 it might take .. five hundred years. 912.535 913.515 or a thousand years. 913.405 913.840 MICHAEL: [Yeah]. 913.515 914.360 JIM: [or] a hundred years. 914.360 915.150 or maybe it's be- -- 915.150 916.825 w- maybe in v- fifty years. 916.825 918.545 (H) or it might never happen but, 918.545 919.140 (H) it's -- 919.140 919.715 to me=, 919.715 922.865 (H) tha=t was scientific irresponsibility. 922.865 923.960 (H) A=nd, 923.960 925.420 w- without the knowledge of, 925.420 925.980 .. of f-, 925.980 927.615 .. what fractals symbolize, 927.615 928.335 at this point, 928.335 928.795 to me, 928.795 929.950 (H) 0- uh, 929.950 930.335 .. they -- 930.335 930.600 .. w- -- 930.600 932.360 they could make that decision easier. 932.360 933.600 ... And, 933.600 935.080 (H) with the sci[entif-] -- 934.840 936.645 MICHAEL: [fractals] could have [2made the de2]cision [3easier3]? 935.445 935.850 JIM: [2(H)2] 936.270 936.645 [3No3]. 936.645 936.970 No. 936.970 938.395 Without the knowledge of fractals. 938.395 939.635 The decision was made easier. 939.635 941.755 [If frac]tals were known at that time, 939.775 940.180 MICHAEL: [oh]. 941.755 943.720 JIM: (H) there might have been a little more caution, 943.720 944.460 because there was, 944.460 945.645 (H) [there's this window]. 944.755 946.340 MICHAEL: [but fractals] don't uh, 946.340 948.460 .. don't imply any .. particular morals. 948.460 949.735 JIM: (H) well they imply, 949.735 950.725 no they don't imply morals, 950.725 953.270 but they do imply that there's more than the obvious going on. 953.270 954.700 MICHAEL: .. Well all math does that. 954.700 955.470 JIM: ... Uh=, 955.470 956.195 not to me=. 956.195 957.455 ... uh [] -- 957.105 958.165 MICHAEL: [They're just] another system, 958.165 958.580 that's all, 958.580 959.525 .. just another model. 959.470 960.670 JIM: ... it's, 960.660 961.800 % to me it's a model, 961.800 963.880 .. it's .. it's a model into the fourth dimension, 963.880 964.745 as opposed to, 964.745 965.370 (H) [you know, 965.075 965.490 MICHAEL: [Well, 965.490 965.990 .. actually, 965.370 966.225 JIM: the third dimension]. 965.990 967.960 MICHAEL: Ein]stein's theory is a model in the fourth dimension, 967.960 968.815 and that's time. 968.815 970.540 ... (H) ... Um, 970.540 972.355 .. but fractal can be applied to, 972.355 973.720 ... many dimensions or n- -- 973.720 974.250 .. or just, 974.250 974.615 .. I mean, 974.615 975.660 any number of dimensions. 975.660 976.470 it's basically, 976.470 979.100 (H) taking something and dividing it up randomly. 979.100 980.370 ... or, 980.370 981.315 .. with some system. 981.315 983.230 ... (H) it's like nested, 983.230 984.920 .. (H) nested values. 984.920 985.835 ... basically. 985.835 988.165 ... Inside a gallon you have four quarts, 988.165 988.900 inside of four -- 988.900 990.715 ... in- .. inside a quart you have, 990.715 991.580 the certain amount of cups, 991.580 991.805 and then, 991.805 992.100 you know. 992.100 993.490 ... (H) etcetera etcetera. 993.490 994.620 .. (H) 994.620 996.420 JIM: ... (TSK) (H) [well, 996.025 997.210 MICHAEL: [I don't .. see how it's] -- 996.420 996.755 JIM: yeah, 996.755 997.500 except it's] not, 997.490 998.285 it's not uh, 998.285 999.215 it's not so, 999.215 1000.415 .. it's not squa=red, 1000.415 1002.260 and it's not as predictable as that. 1002.260 1003.220 I mean it's uh, 1003.220 1003.825 (H) it's, 1003.825 1005.635 .. it's not predictable at all really. 1005.635 1006.515 .. It's=, 1006.515 1008.180 .. it's a it's a found pheno[menon]. 1007.695 1012.845 1007.695 1012.845 MICHAEL: [(H)] Well it's not predictable if you apply random ... values to the ... subdivisions. 1012.845 1015.160 JIM: ... The subdivisions have to be random. 1015.160 1015.560 ... They ha- -- 1015.560 1017.675 it has to .. have .. randomness to it. 1017.675 1018.615 (H) the order, 1018.615 1019.315 I don't think is, 1019.315 1020.570 ... is understood. 1020.570 1021.740 ... yet. 1021.740 1022.910 .. I mean I might be wrong, 1022.910 1024.170 but that's my understanding. 1024.170 1024.585 MICHAEL: Hm. 1024.585 1026.595 ... (TSK) (H) ... well, 1026.595 1027.755 I th=ink, 1027.755 1029.320 JIM: . 1034.070 1034.260 MICHAEL: Oh, 1034.260 1034.905 that's a different thing. 1034.905 1035.995 That's not fractals (Hx). 1035.995 1036.240 JIM: Yeah, 1036.240 1036.765 that's fractals. 1036.765 1039.160 ... (H) 2] other, 1041.190 1041.400 .. it i- -- 1041.400 1041.725 Yes. 1041.725 1042.095 It can. 1042.095 1043.815 And it includes [other mathematics too]. 1042.645 1043.815 MICHAEL: [But fractals is separate]. 1043.815 1044.140 . 1044.140 1044.640 ... I mean, 1044.640 1045.285 and chaos is se- -- 1045.285 1046.140 % they overlap. 1046.140 1046.820 JIM: ... Mhm. 1046.820 1050.625 MICHAEL: (H) ... Chaos [is basically analysis] of noise. 1048.720 1049.885 JIM: [For- for the scientist], 1050.625 1051.495 .. For the scientist, 1051.495 1052.725 the scientist has never hav- -- 1052.725 1053.870 has never had a tool, 1053.870 1054.915 where he had that overlap. 1054.915 1055.535 .. you see. 1055.535 1055.885 (H) 1055.885 1056.285 MICHAEL: Hm. 1056.285 1057.130 JIM: ... see that's w- -- 1057.130 1058.815 .. that's the point that I'm trying to get at. 1058.810 1059.235 is is that, 1059.235 1062.485 (H) because the scientific method now has that tool of overlap, 1062.485 1064.790 it's giving them something that they never had before. 1064.790 1065.435 MICHAEL: ... Hm. 1065.435 1066.330 JIM: .. a=nd, 1066.330 1068.605 ... tha=t is an opportunity for-, 1068.605 1069.925 .. to meet spirituality. 1069.925 1071.580 MICHAEL: ... Yeah well, 1071.580 1072.270 .. there's u%- -- 1072.270 1073.170 JIM: .. [in physics]. 1072.270 1074.845 MICHAEL: [@ There's oppor]tunities to meet spirituality, 1074.845 1076.405 .. twenty-four hours a day wherever you go. 1076.410 1077.750 (H) just by being alive. 1077.750 1078.815 (H) If they don't wanna see it, 1078.815 1080.130 they're not gonna see it in fractals. 1080.130 1080.530 JIM: Well yeah, 1080.530 1081.335 a lot of people will. 1081.335 1082.240 A lot of people will uh, 1082.240 1082.985 it'll dawn on them, 1082.985 1085.440 because .. they .. follow .. the scientific impulse, 1085.440 1086.285 (H) and, 1086.285 1089.280 .. fractals may .. be the very thing that boggles them out enough, 1089.280 1091.735 where they have to do some serious questioning about things. 1091.735 1092.990 ... is my theory. 1092.990 1093.815 MICHAEL: .. [Yeah], 1092.990 1093.890 JIM: [You know]. 1093.890 1094.390 MICHAEL: .. Maybe. 1094.390 1095.575 .. They'll probably find it in something, 1095.575 1096.890 if there fractals weren't there. 1096.890 1097.855 (H) I think um, 1097.855 1099.990 .. (H) it's like all the .. the ideas that we have, 1099.990 1100.755 throughout the ages, 1100.755 1101.565 and the various, 1101.565 1103.910 ... (H) they're just sort of echos of uh=, 1103.910 1104.595 .. the pa=st. 1104.595 1106.935 And they come ... under different names and things. 1106.935 1107.650 Just like um, 1107.650 1110.115 .. (H) the latest power now is corporations. 1110.135 1110.410 Right? 1110.405 1111.565 And before that it was=, 1111.565 1113.380 ... like uh governments, 1113.380 1114.170 before that it was, 1114.170 1115.095 .. principalities, 1115.095 1117.170 ... (H) before that it was gangs, 1117.170 1117.545 you know. 1117.550 1118.100 [@] 1117.550 1118.285 JIM: [@@]@@ 1118.285 1119.100 And tri=bes. 1119.100 1120.150 MICHAEL: And gangs are coming back, 1120.150 1120.400 now, 1120.400 1120.755 you know? 1120.755 1121.360 s- but [uh], 1120.945 1121.260 JIM: [God, 1121.260 1121.845 are] they ever. 1121.845 1122.940 MICHAEL: (H) um, 1122.940 1123.935 JIM: .. it's unbelievable. 1123.935 1124.425 MICHAEL: And knowledge, 1124.425 1126.265 and an=d .. the pursuit of um, 1126.265 1127.375 .. spirituality, 1127.375 1129.105 ... has taken [on] many forms, 1127.930 1128.470 JIM: [(COUGH)] 1129.105 1131.795 MICHAEL: ... And if a person wants to find it in, 1131.795 1132.825 .. in something they believe in, 1132.825 1133.820 and they believe in science, 1133.820 1134.845 they'll find it in science. 1134.845 1136.930 JIM: ... well that's very true, 1136.930 1137.430 but I mean, 1137.430 1137.665 uh- -- 1137.665 1137.880 %that -- 1137.880 1138.990 I thi=nk that that -- 1138.990 1141.265 .. that people who find spirituality in science, 1141.265 1144.575 as their .. f- sole spiritual (H) source are, 1144.575 1146.600 .. (H) people that are fucking up the @planet. 1146.600 1147.740 (H) You know? 1147.740 1149.070 .. I don't think science is the -- 1149.070 1150.605 I don't think science can be God. 1150.605 1152.540 (H) I've been watching Two Thousand And One lately. 1152.540 1152.855 You know? 1152.855 1153.660 I mean that's what that's all -- 1153.660 1153.875 i- -- 1153.875 1154.800 that's not what it's all about, 1154.800 1155.330 but that's a, 1155.330 1156.805 (H) a major theme in it. 1156.805 1157.125 you know, 1157.130 1157.310 that, 1157.310 1159.075 .. the race between the human and the, 1159.075 1159.915 and the tech[no-] -- 1159.540 1159.925 MICHAEL: [mhm]. 1159.915 1160.300 JIM: .. and its, 1160.300 1162.970 and its technological (H) manifestation of, 1162.970 1163.975 (H) well %I- -- 1163.975 1164.200 you know, 1164.200 1164.695 I think that, 1164.695 1165.425 [we built (Hx)] ---- 1164.875 1166.095 MICHAEL: [it's like] are we gonna be part of it, 1166.095 1166.995 or are we gonna make it. 1166.995 1168.450 JIM: (H) Is it gonna m- .. do us, 1168.460 1169.450 or are we gonna do it. 1169.450 1169.730 you know, 1169.730 1170.690 (H) is our creation, 1170.690 1171.815 it's like the Frankenstein myth. 1171.815 1173.855 (H) Is our creation going to uh, 1173.855 1174.760 (H) destroy us? 1174.760 1176.295 or are we [going to continue]. 1175.095 1175.340 MICHAEL: [Yeah uh, 1175.340 1176.305 look at what's on TV]. 1176.305 1176.760 @@ 1176.760 1176.890 JIM: yeah. 1176.890 1177.610 [I just put it on]. 1176.890 1177.840 MICHAEL: [(H) Man]delbrot. 1177.840 1177.990 .. [2oh, 1177.840 1178.705 JIM: [2I just put it2] on. 1177.990 1178.705 MICHAEL: okay2]. 1178.705 1178.995 JIM: .. [3Yeah3]. 1178.935 1179.340 MICHAEL: [3I see3]. 1179.340 1182.065 ... (TSK) I thought they were showing that on the uh .. ads, 1182.065 1182.690 for some reason. 1182.690 1183.035 JIM: @@ 1183.035 1183.700 MICHAEL: .. (H) 1183.700 1185.260 JIM: (H) [%=] 1184.530 1186.005 MICHAEL: [A little too hip] for TV. 1186.005 1186.905 JIM: (H) Little too hip, 1186.905 1187.330 yeah. 1187.330 1189.450 MICHAEL: ... So they're color-cycling right now. 1189.450 1190.585 ... Does it zoom later? 1190.585 1191.300 [I guess it must]. 1190.580 1191.175 JIM: [(H) Yeah, 1191.175 1192.410 I've got] zooms on here too. 1192.415 1194.600 ... (TSK) [2and I2] -- 1194.175 1195.080 MICHAEL: [2Where'd you tape2] it from. 1195.080 1195.685 JIM: .. M=_(TSK) uh, 1195.685 1197.170 .. This one's Fractal Fantasy, 1197.170 1197.650 which is=, 1197.650 1198.175 for sale. 1198.175 1199.310 MICHAEL: ... Hunh. 1199.310 1200.675 JIM: .. and the other one is uh, 1200.675 1201.685 ... Fractal Zooms, 1201.685 1203.070 which I don't think is available, 1203.070 1207.550 (H) ... (BURP) b- and then I've got a uh= test film from .. IBM laboratories. 1207.550 1208.090 of uh, 1208.090 1208.705 f- uh, 1208.705 1209.605 (H) uh, 1209.605 1212.050 .. (H) taking a Julia set into the fourth dimension. 1212.050 1212.660 MICHAEL: .. Hm. 1212.660 1213.890 JIM: ... which th- -- 1213.890 1214.975 and then they zoom through it, 1214.975 1215.420 it's pretty f- -- 1215.420 1216.800 pretty fantastic looking