@UTF8 @Begin @Languages: eng @Participants: MICH MICHAEL Speaker, JIM JIM Speaker @Options: CA, caps, bullets @ID: eng|SBCSAE|MICH|||||Speaker||| @ID: eng|SBCSAE|JIM|||||Speaker||| @Media: 17, audio @Comment: Wonderful Abstract Notions @Comment: A conversation between two male friends, recorded in Southern California. *MICH: (.) Hm . 8865_9440 *MICH: (.) &=tsk yeah . 9380_10236 *JIM: (..) And even if I go out and a:sk for it . 10236_12574 *JIM: you know 12574_12808 I say 12808_13216 &{l=Q can I copy that &}l=Q . 13216_14192 *JIM: (.) I won't feel guilty . 14212_15549 *JIM: (..) &{l=% I really won't &}l=% . 15549_17247 *JIM: (.) It's just a set of instructions 17247_18751 I used to program . 18815_19730 *JIM: &=in a little bit 19730_20590 and 20590_21045 &=in a:nd u:m 21045_22510 (..) &=tsk &=in those guys have so much fun writing those programs . 22510_25715 *JIM: (..) you know 25710_26885 (.) that's theʔ +/. 26885_27465 *JIM: (..) I think that's: +/. 27465_28610 *JIM: (.) ⌈ that's pretty +... 28610_29205 *MICH: ⌊ &=tsk &=in Yeah well . 28720_29390 *JIM: ʔuh That's pretty much the end of it ⌉ . 29175_30560 *MICH: creative people generally ⌋ do what they love ⌈2 to do ⌉2 . 29395_31780 *JIM: ⌊2 &=in ⌋2 Yeah 31285_32140 right . 32140_32635 *JIM: (.) And that's pretty much the end of the truthful part of the process . 32595_35955 *JIM: &=in The rest of it is all m:arketing . 35955_37990 *MICH: (.) Hm . 37990_38555 *JIM: and the marketplace is uh 38555_40380 (.) you know 40380_40865 (.) maybe I think I live in Tangiers . 40865_43030 *JIM: &=in &=lengthened you know ? 43030_43875 *JIM: (.) Maybe I think the marketplace is ⌈ uh ⌉ . 43875_45895 *MICH: ⌊ &=laugh ⌋ . 45560_45865 *JIM: &=in you get what you can get . 45865_47480 *MICH: (.) yeah . 47480_48200 *JIM: (..) &=ex (.) Uh: 48200_49675 (..) &=in seems to be that way . 49675_51985 *JIM: you know 51985_52295 I- as long as I'm not hurting another person directly 52295_54490 &=in . 54490_54865 *MICH: Right . 54865_55295 *JIM: (.) You know ? 55295_55725 *JIM: or even indirectly . 55725_57120 *JIM: (..) &=in but just throwing my money out there 57120_59725 he may never see a penny of it . 59725_60950 *JIM: he may have sold the rights . 60950_62160 *MICH: &=in &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh . 62160_63260 *JIM: outright . 63260_63830 *JIM: ⌈ &=in You [% laugh] know [% laugh] ⌉ ? 63830_64585 *MICH: ⌊ &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh &=in ⌋ . 64230_65730 *JIM: ⌈ &=in &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh ⌉ . 64545_64805 *MICH: ⌊ That certainly happens in ⌋ music . 64805_66210 *JIM: &=in Happens [% laugh] ye:s [% laugh] . 66210_67795 *JIM: ⌈ ʔI- ⌉ ʔyeah . 67795_68680 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah ⌋ . 68070_68615 *JIM: (.) You know ? 68680_69120 *JIM: I mean it (.) happens all over the ⌈ place ⌉ . 69120_70885 *MICH: You know I ⌊ wish ⌋ I was 70520_71375 uh 71375_71580 the person: 71580_72255 (.) whose voice they used in the (.) telephone 72255_74270 when it tells you 74270_75180 (..) the number has been changed 75180_76945 (.) &=in And that I had uh 76945_78365 copyright 78365_79070 &=laugh &=laugh 79070_79470 get some royalties . 79470_80255 *MICH: Like 80255_80430 &=in that lady 80430_81380 you know 81380_81700 h- you hear 81700_82315 &=in (..) &{l=Q the number you have reached 82315_84000 da-duh da-duh ⌈ da-duh da-duh da-duh da-duh &}l=Q ⌉ . 84000_85800 *JIM: ⌊ they got a different woman ⌋ 84670_85800 didn't they . 85800_86315 *MICH: (.) Hunh ? 86315_86725 *JIM: didn't they get a different woman ? 86725_87905 *JIM: (.) When she th- tried to do that ? 88040_89240 *MICH: ⌈ I don't know if they did ⌉ . 89240_90340 *JIM: ⌊ they 89240_89575 they 89575_89875 they hired an⌋other voice . 89875_91195 *MICH: I didn't hear any follow-up . 91095_92280 *MICH: but . 92280_92580 *JIM: that's what I thought that they did any⌈ways ⌉ . 92580_94120 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah ⌋ ? 93790_94120 *MICH: (..) hunh . 94120_95025 *MICH: (..) they certainly u:se her a lot . 94955_97660 *MICH: (..) But I mean it- +/. 97660_98560 *MICH: they only use 98560_99190 what . 99190_99400 *MICH: a s- ʔuh +/. 99400_99930 *MICH: five seconds total or something ? 99930_101575 *MICH: You know 101575_101845 it's a- +/. 101850_102300 *MICH: (.) &=in ⌈ &=lengthened ⌉ . 102300_103160 *JIM: ⌊ &=tsk Probably took her ⌋ a lo:ng time: to 102380_104280 (.) &=in &=tsk to say every possible combination . 104280_107085 *MICH: &=in oh but 107085_107750 ʔthey +/. 107750_108120 *MICH: ʔthe computer does that . 108120_108990 *MICH: All she has to do is say: each digit . 108990_110895 *MICH: (.) and the ⌈ computer . 110895_111940 *JIM: ⌊ Oh that's all it is . 111280_112195 *MICH: (.) Yeah . 112020_112285 *MICH: (.) it's like a series of samples ⌉ . 112285_113715 *JIM: (.) And it automatically sorts ⌋ em . 112345_113920 *MICH: (.) ⌈2 Unhunh ⌉2 . 113920_114335 *JIM: ⌊2 Yeah ⌋2 . 113945_114335 *MICH: right . 114335_114655 *MICH: yeah . 114655_115105 *MICH: (.) &=in so it's 115105_116470 (.) &=in (.) Probably the total actual (.) s- speaking that they use 116470_120510 is pretty short . 120510_121350 *MICH: (..) It would be much more pleasant if they had done all the combinations though . 121350_127255 *MICH: (..) &=in (.) You know 127255_129390 call it up 129390_129875 and there's something that actually (.) says your number 129875_132395 (.) in toto 132395_133335 (.) ⌈ You know &=laugh &=laugh ⌉ ? 133335_134125 *JIM: ⌊ Yeah: . 133425_133925 *JIM: Or ⌋ 133925_134130 because it recognizes your phone number 134130_136430 it automatically goes into the computer 136430_137915 finds that . 137925_138645 *MICH: ⌈ Yeah . 138645_139090 *JIM: ⌊ and +/. 138805_139090 *JIM: a and names the ⌋ na:me . 139090_139970 *MICH: that sample ⌋ . 138910_139760 *JIM: &=in &=lengthened (..) &{l=Q Thank you Mister Smith 139970_142430 for calling Pacific Bell &}l=Q . 142430_143790 *JIM: ⌈ &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh ⌉ . 143790_144785 *MICH: ⌊ yeah 143890_144185 right . 144185_144580 *MICH: You know [% laugh] 144580_144990 &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh &=in ⌋ . 144990_146285 *JIM: &{l=Q I am your personal computer representative &}l=Q . 144780_147595 *JIM: &=in . 147595_148060 *MICH: ⌈ That'd be great . 148060_148960 *JIM: ⌊ &=laugh &=in . 148050_149080 *MICH: &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh &=laugh ⌉ . 149080_150215 *JIM: &{l=Q Push one 149080_149815 if you ⌋ wish to know my phone number 149815_151870 (.) push &{l=@ two 151870_152535 if you wish ⌈ to h- &}l=@ &}l=Q +... 152535_153595 *MICH: ⌊ &=laugh &=in 153545_153920 My phone number &{l=X that I &}l=X +... 153920_154940 *JIM: you know have dinner ⌉ with me 153935_155470 push three . 155470_156105 *MICH: &=in &=laugh &=in ⌋ . 155095_156270 *JIM: if you want to uh 156105_157050 &=in ⌈ &=lengthened ʔuh ⌉ +... 157050_157905 *MICH: ⌊ &=laugh Artif⌋icial intelligence personality 157525_159430 that you ⌈2 call up ⌉2 . 159430_160415 *JIM: ⌊2 Yeah [% laugh] &=laugh ⌋2 so [% laugh] 159805_160695 &=in &{l=Q if you do not like this personality &}l=Q 160695_162405 push zero: 162445_163305 ⌈ and a: new personal⌉ity . 163305_164860 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah [% laugh] &=laugh &=laugh . 163165_164160 *MICH: &=in ⌋ . 164160_164725 *JIM: will ⌈2 be pro⌉2vided for you . 164860_165795 *MICH: ⌊2 ʔYeah ⌋2 . 164965_165410 *JIM: at ⌈3 no extra ⌉3 charge . 165795_167065 *MICH: ⌊3 ʔYeah ⌋3 . 165970_166400 *MICH: ⌈4 Hunh ⌉4 . 167065_167405 *JIM: ⌊4 &=in ⌋4 &{l=Q You are allowed up to five personalities in one phone call &}l=Q . 167405_170585 *JIM: &=in &=laugh &=laugh ⌈ &=laugh ⌉ . 170580_171390 *MICH: ⌊ &=laugh ⌋ . 171010_171365 *JIM: (.) &=laugh (.) &=laugh 171365_172805 (.) &=in ʔuh well the networking of computers is getting uh s:uch that 172805_176795 (.) you know 176795_177490 (..) &=tsk almost anything's possible . 177490_179415 *JIM: (.) &=in ⌈ Any XX +... 179415_180355 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah 180045_180355 that's why I: (.) &{l=X like it &}l=X ⌋ . 180355_181275 *JIM: It's just matrix⌉ing 180615_181810 and 181810_182065 &=in just 182065_182780 con- constantly 182780_183925 building and building 183925_184790 u:pon building upon building 184790_186335 on these complexities 186335_187285 and build⌈ing controllers for ⌉ the:m . 187290_189025 *MICH: ⌊ That's right 187760_188475 &{l=X and &}l=X ⌋ . 188370_188585 *JIM: and building on top of those . 189025_190485 *MICH: ⌈ And you're building on the ⌉ thoughts of th- your predecessors . 190485_192725 *JIM: ⌊ &=in ⌋ . 190485_191330 *MICH: but your predecessors 192725_193550 in this case 193550_194190 could be like (.) last year . 194190_195535 *JIM: &=in ⌈ &=lengthened ⌉ . 195535_196540 *MICH: ⌊ You know it's like ⌋ 195950_196535 it's ⌈2 moving ⌉2 so fast . 196540_197955 *JIM: ⌊2 Oh ⌋2 . 196700_197115 *JIM: ⌈3 So fast ⌉3 . 197935_198670 *MICH: ⌊3 &=in ⌋3 It's like ⌈4 a r- ⌉4 +... 197955_199505 *JIM: ⌊4 &=ex ⌋4 &=lengthened . 198890_199505 *MICH: It's a reflection of the brain 199505_201110 (..) and it's communication like books 201110_203415 but it's much quicker . 203415_204385 *MICH: (..) ⌈ And it's like ⌉ . 204385_205860 *JIM: ⌊ &{l=X but &}l=X when they get ⌋ +... 205255_205885 *MICH: if you can think of something and define it 205860_207490 you can: (.) make it happen . 207490_208955 *MICH: (..) If it just about information . 208955_210765 *MICH: (.) ⌈ I mean you can't ⌉ +... 210765_211525 *JIM: ⌊ &=in If it's just ⌋ about information 210740_212500 ⌈2 that's very true ⌉2 . 212500_213310 *MICH: ⌊2 Yeah . 212500_212770 *MICH: (.) You can't ⌋2 conjure: something up 212770_214195 (..) like a car: out of nothing . 214195_215730 *MICH: (.) But 215730_216040 (..) &=tsk &=in . 216040_217060 *JIM: well with the superconductors 217060_218645 (..) uh 218645_219340 (.) that's gonna make it 219340_220290 (.) you know 220290_220710 s:o economical . 220710_221955 *MICH: (.) mhm . 221955_222535 *JIM: for everybody 222535_223485 (.) to have 223485_224140 (.) all the electronic 224140_225585 (.) this and that that they want 225585_226795 because there'll be so little loss of electricity . 226795_229190 *MICH: (.) &=tsk Yeah: . 229190_230180 *MICH: (.) ⌈ And it'll be small⌉: . 230180_231225 *JIM: ⌊ You know and it ⌋ +/. 230285_231040 *JIM: (.) It'll be f- so small 231225_232365 that we'll have enormous amount- +/. 232365_233705 *JIM: uhʔ +/. 233705_233950 *JIM: we should have an enormous (..) supply of it . 233950_236590 *MICH: (.) &=in yeah like 236590_237540 every light switch will have its own computer or something you know . 237540_240275 *MICH: (.) Basically 240275_240800 because it'll be cheap enough that 240800_242225 (..) cheap as a switch these ⌈ days or something . 242225_245140 *JIM: ⌊ it won't cost anything ⌋ . 244385_245420 *MICH: you know ⌉ ? 245140_245460 *JIM: ky- +/. 245420_245645 *JIM: and it +/. 245645_245855 *JIM: ʔand when they go into outer space 245855_247260 and start growing this (.) thi- those uh 247260_249110 &=in silicon chips without any flaw:s . 249110_251560 *MICH: ⌈ Hm ⌉ . 251560_251950 *JIM: ⌊ &=in ⌋ they'll be able to uh 251560_253195 (.) grow circuitry that is so complicated 253195_255565 &=in that 255565_256145 (.) you know 256145_256825 (..) that gravity destroy:s it . 256825_258545 *JIM: so they'll be ⌈ able ⌉ to uh . 258545_259785 *MICH: ⌊ Hm ⌋ . 259035_259335 *JIM: &=in ⌈2 uh ⌉2 . 259780_260330 *MICH: ⌊2 Yeah ⌋2 . 259935_260330 *JIM: ʔuh to- +/. 260330_260695 *JIM: i- they'll be able to get these fanta:stic uh: c:ircuits 260695_264040 &=in f- like say for a whole television set 264040_265915 just on one chip . 265915_266990 *JIM: (.) &=in ⌈ A:nd uh: ⌉ . 266990_268565 *MICH: ⌊ &=in &=laugh &=laugh ⌋ . 267365_268565 *JIM: (..) uh: 268565_269610 and then it'll harden out there 269610_270850 and k- they'll bring it back . 270850_271740 *JIM: (..) &=in ʔa- (.) uh 271740_273325 the whole ⌈ thing is ⌉ s: . 273325_274365 *MICH: ⌊ &=ex ⌋ . 273670_274365 *JIM: is s: 274365_274785 (.) is so sensational . 274785_276000 *MICH: (..) &=tsk That'll be expensive at first . 276000_278080 *JIM: (..) God . 278075_279125 *JIM: But ⌈ can you ⌉ +... 279125_279655 *MICH: ⌊ growing em ⌋ in space 279265_280300 ⌈2 but that's ⌉2 great . 280300_281020 *JIM: ⌊2 yeah ⌋2 . 280320_280645 *JIM: it'll +/. 281020_281410 *JIM: it'll uh 281410_282085 (..) ⌈ it'll ⌉ be worth it . 282085_284380 *MICH: ⌊ In ⌋ +/. 283625_283945 *MICH: &=in (..) This technology out of m:ost of 284380_288260 (.) uh m- 288260_288790 (.) anything in the pa:st 288790_289775 ha- has m- +/. 289775_290390 *MICH: (..) it's becoming like we're shaping our: (..) our destiny 290390_293835 &{l=X or &}l=X ourselves . 293835_294645 *MICH: (..) u:m 294645_296170 (..) with this technology 296170_297895 more than we have in ʔuh (.) with any other in the past 297895_300115 it seems . 300115_300625 *MICH: &=in &=lengthened (.) just b_like 300625_302165 whatever we think it b- ʔuh +/. 302150_303345 *MICH: (.) we can (.) make it . 303345_304885 *MICH: (.) &=in but there's one technology that's u:m 304885_307020 (.) gonna overtake that 307020_307955 and that's D:NA research . 307955_309480 *MICH: (.) which is: 309480_309970 like 309970_310235 a total scam at this point 310235_311690 still it's 311690_312225 they're just like 312225_312870 (.) bombarding (..) &=in ʔuh organisms with radiation 312870_316540 to see what comes up . 316540_317520 *MICH: (..) &=in you know . 317520_318490 *MICH: We have very little control over it . 318490_319935 *MICH: (.) But once we do: 319935_320980 (.) &=in we'll be able to progra:m biology as well . 320980_324025 *JIM: (.) &=in &=tsk Well tha:t's pretty frightening con⌈cept ⌉ . 324025_326665 *MICH: ⌊ &=tsk &=in ⌋ It is frightening but . 326185_327665 *JIM: (.) We ⌈ can't even ⌉ control our freeways . 327660_329695 *MICH: ⌊ um ⌋ 328005_328520 &=in I know: . 329695_330475 *JIM: you know⌈: ? 330475_330960 *MICH: ⌊ &=in ⌋ . 330580_331315 *JIM: I mean ⌉ . 330905_331315 *MICH: but 331315_331565 i- ʔuh +/. 331565_331870 *MICH: the thing is 331870_332615 any s- technology that comes up 332620_334100 it gets used . 334100_334930 *MICH: (..) Once it's out there in ⌈ the open ⌉ . 334930_336130 *JIM: ⌊ &=in ⌋ . 336130_336615 *MICH: the- +... 336615_337045 *JIM: Well ⌈ I hope ⌉ +... 337045_337610 *MICH: ⌊ the so⌋ciety ⌈2 as a- a whole ⌉2 . 337160_338960 *JIM: ⌊2 I hope they use fractals ⌋2 . 337900_339385 *JIM: (.) Are you familiar with fractals ? 339385_340730 *MICH: Unhunh . 340730_341070 *JIM: (.) Yeah 341075_341345 I hope they use a lot of fractals . 341350_342930 *JIM: Be⌈cause f:- ⌉ +... 342930_343560 *MICH: ⌊ in biolo⌋gy re⌈2search ⌉2 ? 343040_344240 *JIM: ⌊2 ʔuh ⌋2 343840_344195 ʔuh No . 344195_344650 *JIM: But in: 344650_345035 well 345035_345350 the connection between mathematics and biology 345350_347890 ⌈ can be ⌉ found k- +... 347890_348850 *MICH: ⌊ unhunh ⌋ . 348015_348325 *JIM: uh 348850_349190 m:ore easily with fractals 349190_350600 than it can with uh ⌈ regular ⌉ mathematics . 350595_352755 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah ⌋ . 351535_351890 *JIM: &=in ⌈ &=lengthened ⌉ &=lengthened . 352755_353445 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah ⌋ . 353030_353445 *JIM: (..) So 353445_354025 (.) &=in you know 354025_354555 I'm looking for the p- connection 354555_356300 between science and 356300_357430 &=in a:nd religion and 357430_359100 (.) and and ⌈ and bio⌉logy . 359100_360690 *MICH: ⌊ mhm ⌋ . 359975_360520 *JIM: as it were 360730_361270 ar- +/. 361270_361530 *JIM: th- you know 361530_361885 the living as spiritual 361885_363195 and the +/. 363215_363535 *JIM: and the: . 363535_364090 *MICH: ⌈ Like the ancient science were ⌉ . 364090_365885 *JIM: ⌊ and the sci- +/. 364115_364880 *JIM: and the scienti⌋fic 364880_365900 (.) ⌈2 Pardon ⌉2 ? 365900_366440 *MICH: ⌊2 it was ⌋2 366070_366440 like the ancient science 366445_367690 it was just (..) a branch of knowledge 367690_369545 which is- included ⌈ all knowledge ⌉ basi⌈2cally . 369545_371635 *JIM: ⌊ Alchemy ⌋ . 370335_371000 *JIM: ⌊2 alchemy . 371340_371975 *JIM: (.) Right ⌋2 ? 371975_372570 *MICH: &=in Unhunh ⌉2 . 372095_372570 *JIM: &=in ⌈3 yeah . 372570_373400 *MICH: ⌊3 &=in &=lengthened 372580_373495 Whatever gets ⌋3 the job done . 373495_374775 *JIM: The- the- ⌉3 +/. 373500_374490 *JIM: the ge⌈4stalt ⌉4 . 374665_375355 *MICH: ⌊4 &=laugh ⌋4 . 374970_375405 *JIM: (.) the totality i:s taken into account 375355_377465 as opposed to 377465_378225 &=in ⌈ as opposed ⌉ to the observer . 378225_380155 *MICH: ⌊ Right ⌋ . 378735_379205 *JIM: &=in you know 380155_380785 &=in I remember 380785_381500 ʔm- back in the psychedelic days 381500_382940 there was this poster of the scientist . 382940_384505 *JIM: I've always been on a 384505_385265 (.) kind of a crusade 385270_386280 ʔuh (.) for scientific uh 386280_387650 &=in responsibility . 387650_388770 *JIM: Right ? 388770_389090 *JIM: &=in And scientists are 389090_390345 &=in are taking such control over the world these days . 390345_393090 *JIM: &=in uh with their n- 393090_394340 (.) you know 394340_394640 not the scientists 394640_395430 but what they've invented . 395430_396480 *JIM: &=in And the way it's marketed 396480_398105 and the way we're d- +/. 398105_398780 *JIM: (.) we develop needs for it . 398780_400140 *JIM: &=in And I remember this pf- cartoon I saw w- 400140_402470 (.) of 402470_402900 (.) of 402900_403380 (.) it was called The Scientist . 403380_404745 *JIM: &=in and it had this 404745_405680 (.) this wonderful stone statue 405680_407865 about twenty stories tall 407865_409455 of a naked ma:n 409455_410475 and a naked woman 410475_411495 (.) &=in intertwined with each other 411495_413340 hugging each other 413340_414010 full frontal 414010_414700 and their arms wrapped around each other 414700_416250 &=in and then they s- +/. 416250_417265 *JIM: (.) they- they looked like they were so intertwined 417265_418495 and they spiraled down and 418495_419515 (.) and they're a s- +/. 419515_420050 *JIM: (.) they're a statue . 420050_421025 *JIM: &=in ⌈ right ⌉ . 421025_421585 *MICH: ⌊ Hm ⌋ . 421305_421585 *JIM: made out of sto:ne . 421585_422525 *JIM: and they're 422525_422835 &=in and the whole b:ase of the statue is crumbling . 422835_425450 *JIM: (..) Right ? 425450_426355 *JIM: &=in And it's just like rubble: . 426355_427765 *JIM: f- like from 427765_428325 (.) just below the knee:s 428325_429755 &=in down 429755_430340 was just kind of rubble . 430340_431365 *JIM: but the rest of it was all real clear 431365_433115 a fewʔ little +/. 433115_433510 *JIM: (.) some of it was chipped off 433510_434700 you know 434700_434990 it was ol:d but 434990_435680 &=in and d- +/. 435680_436500 *JIM: and down at the bo:ttom 436500_437550 of this 437550_438030 (.) this rubble 438030_438965 (.) was this little m:an . 438965_440290 *JIM: &=in who was a scientist . 440290_441675 *JIM: And he had this big magnifying glass . 441675_443600 *JIM: &=in and he was looking at the rubble . 443600_445320 *JIM: Looking ⌈ with his ⌉ head down . 445320_446770 *MICH: ⌊ &=laugh ⌋ 445515_445995 (.) Hm . 446770_447185 *JIM: not looking up at the statue 447185_448685 and seei:ng the lo:ve 448685_449875 and the the- the- symbol there 449875_451530 &=in but looking down at the crumbs 451530_453405 &=in you ⌈ know ⌉ . 453405_454335 *MICH: ⌊ Hm ⌋ . 453925_454335 *JIM: &=in at the rubble at the bottom . 454335_455650 *JIM: With his magnifying glass . 455620_457010 *JIM: &=in (.) an:d 457005_458040 (..) an:d 458040_458965 (.) to me that 458965_459765 (.) that always symbolized 459765_461370 kind of rather clearly 461370_462485 &=in the limitations of the scientific method . 462485_464660 *JIM: &=in (.) Whi- +/. 464660_465575 *JIM: if it doesn't take into account . 465575_467135 *MICH: (..) well . 467135_468150 *JIM: (.) the (.) to- +/. 468150_468700 *JIM: (.) the the the whole human experience 468700_470830 &=in and 470830_471445 (.) including 471445_472130 &=in (.) the (.) unbelievable parts of it . 472130_474575 *JIM: (.) the parts that are just legend . 474575_476155 *JIM: and myth . 476155_476880 *JIM: and 476880_477180 &=in (.) a:nd uh: 477180_478675 (.) ⌈ alluded to: ⌉ . 478675_479590 *MICH: ⌊ you mean the theories ⌋ . 478745_479835 *JIM: and 479635_479920 and the psychedelic experiences 479920_481770 and the &=in subjec⌈tive ⌉ . 481770_483500 *MICH: ⌊ oh 482980_483125 on ⌋ that side . 483125_483700 *JIM: you know: 483700_484040 and insanity: 484040_484985 ⌈ and . 484985_485220 *MICH: ⌊ &=in &=lengthened ⌋ . 484900_485520 *JIM: What 485220_485450 I ⌉ mean . 485450_485755 *MICH: ⌈2 well ⌉2 . 485755_486215 *JIM: ⌊2 you know they ⌋2 +... 485745_486215 *MICH: (..) ʔuh . 486215_486715 *JIM: They've got to take ac- into account . 486715_488245 *MICH: ⌈ ʔuh &=ex ⌉ . 488245_488725 *JIM: ⌊ &=in ⌋ uh . 488245_488870 *MICH: but 488870_489060 (.) ⌈ you can't ⌉ . 489060_489680 *JIM: ⌊ the East ⌋ 489060_490065 with all its 490065_490725 with all its fantas⌈tic discoveries ⌉ . 490725_492910 *MICH: ⌊ but you can't look ⌋ at the stars with a microscope . 491775_494450 *MICH: (..) &=tsk And science is a microscope . 494500_496825 *MICH: (..) Each (.) p_scientist has their 496825_498820 &=in (..) their field of um 498820_500935 (..) experti:se 500935_502055 (.) and if they're gonna go 502055_503025 (.) if they're gonna stretch out far enough into theʔ +/. 503025_505190 *MICH: (..) the unknown . 505190_506180 *MICH: (.) where they can find something new . 506180_507595 *MICH: &=in They have to do it in a straight line . 507595_509290 *MICH: They can't ⌈ do it . 509290_510255 *JIM: ⌊ that's true ⌋ . 509645_510255 *MICH: &=in ⌉ &=lengthened in all directions at once . 510255_511680 *MICH: Because then you run into things that we already know . 511680_513570 *MICH: (.) &=in ⌈ So the problem is: communication between s- ⌉ +... 513570_516285 *JIM: ⌊ but they're doing it 513830_514560 (.) they're doing it with mathematics . 514555_515950 *JIM: Right ⌋ ? 515950_516265 *JIM: (..) I mean . 516265_517035 *MICH: ⌈2 Well . 516680_517105 *JIM: n- (.) ⌊2 no ⌋2 . 517105_517665 *MICH: (.) but the comm- ⌉2 517045_517550 (.) problem is 517665_518105 (.) communication between the branches of science . 518105_520325 *JIM: (.) ⌈ mhm ⌉ . 520325_520780 *MICH: ⌊ I think ⌋ . 520315_520780 *JIM: (.) &=tsk that's ⌈2 true ⌉2 . 520780_521475 *MICH: ⌊2 cause ⌋2 521020_521390 &=in who's gonna (.) be able to hold 521390_523190 all that knowledge 523190_524005 and make the connections . 524005_525135 *JIM: (..) &=in Well 525135_526355 the philosopher:s 526355_527425 and the: spiritual leaders 527425_529045 an:d 529045_529485 I mean 529485_529805 cause 529805_530105 (.) f- the stuff can be understand 530105_531595 (.) understood 531595_532300 (..) The ⌈ goa:ls . 532300_533050 *MICH: ⌊ &=in (.) Those people can tell you: ⌋ . 533050_534375 *JIM: or the 533050_533485 (.) or the cutting +/. 533485_534310 *JIM: cutting ⌉ edge 534310_534845 can be understand +/. 534845_535685 *JIM: (.) understood intellectually 535685_537220 &=in ⌈ &=lengthened ⌉ . 537220_537495 *MICH: ⌊ but ⌋ those people can't tell you the details . 537390_539185 *MICH: (.) they know the whole structure 539185_540270 ⌈ but see ⌉ . 540270_540705 *JIM: ⌊ well the ⌋ +... 540290_540705 *MICH: it's like both sides . 540705_541485 *MICH: You have to have somebody looking at the ⌈ details . 541485_543200 *JIM: ⌊ ʔy- got to have a leader . 542760_543950 *MICH: and somebody looking at the +/. 543200_544410 *MICH: &=in ⌉ . 544410_544785 *JIM: and you got to have ⌋ 543950_544720 a bunch of workers . 544720_545570 *JIM: &=in ⌈ You know ⌉ ? 545570_546550 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah ⌋ . 546020_546550 *JIM: (.) A⌈2:nd you gotta ⌉2 have somebody . 546550_547725 *MICH: ⌊2 right ⌋2 . 546940_547370 *JIM: who d_isn't necessarily inclined to deal with the details that mu:ch 547725_550950 &=in who's guiding 550950_552465 those who are willing ⌈ to sit there . 552465_554230 *MICH: ⌊ I guess that's the problem . 553705_554775 *JIM: (.) and make all the ⌉ +... 554230_555260 *MICH: we don't have a ⌋ guider . 554775_555730 *JIM: (.) &=in yeah . 555725_556585 *JIM: there's no l- 556585_557060 there's no lead 557060_557675 or ⌈ there's no ⌉ focus . 557675_558860 *MICH: ⌊ yeah ⌋ . 557810_558315 *JIM: &=in ⌈2 and ⌉2 +... 558860_559750 *MICH: ⌊2 That's right ⌋2 . 559160_559750 *JIM: (.) a:nd uh 559750_560855 (.) you know 560855_561365 (.) I think 561365_561815 (..) I think that 561815_562595 (.) one of the reasons that there's been no focus is because 562595_565350 &=in (.) ʔuh uh 565350_566595 everybody accepted the scientific method as the best too:l that we ha:ve 566595_570540 ⌈ &=in And ⌉ was kinda letting the scientific method be the +... 570540_573470 *MICH: ⌊ Mhm ⌋ . 570695_571110 *JIM: (.) be the leader . 573470_574265 *JIM: &=in The: +/. 574265_575120 *JIM: the- w- you know 575120_575750 (.) ⌈ just continue inventorying and ⌉ . 575750_577695 *MICH: ⌊ Well those people who are doing re⌋search . 576080_577890 *JIM: (.) continue inventorying 577890_579110 cataloging 579110_579835 ʔuh_experimenting 579835_580985 (..) You know . 580985_582680 *JIM: (..) &=tsk documenting . 582680_584390 *JIM: (..) uh: 584390_585745 (..) uh: 585745_587090 whatever . 587090_587830 *JIM: &=in and 587830_588600 instead of: 588600_589210 (.) instead of uh 589210_590495 (..) uh coming at it from another direction . 590495_593065 *JIM: Trying to find 593065_593950 (.) trying to find 593950_594940 (.) uh 594940_595630 (..) trying to find way:s to 595630_598705 &=in to 598705_599785 like (.) with (.) with Einstein for example 599785_602110 you know 602110_602500 &=in uh 602500_603230 it seemed to me 603230_603845 he was trying to f- +/. 603845_604715 *JIM: T_he was ex- (.) per- +/. 604715_606115 *JIM: experimenting with 606115_607125 &=in with new ways of doing things 607125_609025 you know . 609025_609400 *MICH: ⌈ &{l=X well &}l=X thinking ⌉ about things . 609400_610630 *JIM: ⌊ &=in ʔuh- ⌋ +/. 609475_610205 *JIM: uh and thinking about things 610610_611735 and he was trying to +/. 611735_612410 *JIM: he w- +/. 612400_612640 *JIM: I think he was ultimately trying to 612645_614150 (..) trying to discover the speed of his own thought . 614150_616535 *JIM: (.) &=in . 616535_617130 *MICH: Hm . 617130_617455 *JIM: You know 617250_617770 &=in &{l=X I mean &}l=X 617985_618350 ʔuh: he was like 618350_619075 really off into wonderful abstract notions 619075_621485 that ⌈ were all based ⌉ in a peaceful (..) world . 621485_623980 *MICH: ⌊ &=in ⌋ . 621635_622250 *JIM: You know ? 623980_624540 *JIM: &=in that couldn't exist unless he was secure . 624540_626615 *JIM: that we had a peaceful world . 626615_627810 *JIM: or that (.) that (.) peace (.) was &=in part of it . 627810_629980 *JIM: Of (..) what he was (.) abou:t . 629980_631690 *JIM: &=in and 631690_632765 &=in so much of today's technology is soulless . 632765_635290 *JIM: and has nothing to do with peace 635290_636425 it has to do with 636425_637150 &=in just generally 637150_638580 (.) chewing up 638580_639190 (.) you know 639190_639645 consumerism basical⌈ly and ⌉ . 639650_641150 *MICH: ⌊ Mhm ⌋ . 640705_641150 *JIM: &=in (.) chewing up +/. 641130_642355 *JIM: (..) ch- n- +/. 642355_643385 *JIM: j- chewing up (.) new w- +/. 643385_644370 *JIM: uh 644370_644720 chewing up the human experience 644720_646220 and turning it into 646220_647265 &=in some kind of consumer need . 647265_649010 *MICH: (.) Did you ever get into Tesla ? 649010_650390 *JIM: (.) &=in uh: 650390_651625 just 651620_652030 ʔuh- ever so peripherally . 652030_653590 *MICH: (.) He had a lot of real (.) wacky ideas on (.) big levels . 653590_657735 *MICH: He wanted a world power system 657735_659385 &=in that you could um 659385_661090 (..) tap into the air basically 661090_662855 and get power anywhere on earth . 662855_664305 *MICH: (..) &=in and um 664305_666340 (.) &=in ⌈ &=lengthened y- ⌉ +... 666340_667410 *JIM: ⌊ that's what the ⌋ Tesla coil was about ? 666940_668695 *MICH: Yeah . 668695_669265 *MICH: (.) but 669265_669650 e- the problem was 669650_670435 that it 670435_670765 (.) it uh 670765_671380 &=in it interfered with um 671380_673630 &=SWALLOW (..) well 673630_676840 matter . 676840_677255 *MICH: &=laugh I [% laugh] mean 677255_677925 y- +/. 677925_678180 *MICH: it was n:ot a clean broadcast system . 678180_679945 *MICH: Like everything in the room 679945_681055 if you had a Tesla coil in the middle of the room 681055_682860 all the metal objects would be receiving it constant⌈ly ⌉ . 682860_685690 *JIM: ⌊ M⌋hm . 685185_685690 *MICH: &=in &=lengthened So 685690_686790 (.) it wasn't really a very efficient either . 686790_688730 *MICH: (.) Because you'd have to have a- +/. 688730_689780 *MICH: &=in an immense amount of power being broadcast 689780_692225 so that 692225_692590 a few points could receive 692590_693995 (.) you know 693995_694460 their share of it . 694460_695225 *MICH: (..) &=tsk ⌈ &=in ⌉ . 695225_696360 *JIM: ⌊ now what ⌋ about 696060_696570 if they +/. 696570_697095 *JIM: ʔi- with the superconductor . 697095_698225 *JIM: Will that change all that ? 698225_699310 *MICH: (..) &=tsk I don't know . 699310_701330 *MICH: (.) He was dealing with it being (..) basically energy 701330_704615 and being sent through the air 704615_705765 uh you know: 705765_706225 like light . 706225_706995 *JIM: like 706995_707510 (.) yeah . 707510_707960 *JIM: Like tapping right into just the energy of the earth 707970_710275 or something . 710275_710945 *JIM: ⌈ &{l=X alright &}l=X ⌉ . 710945_711445 *MICH: ⌊ yeah ⌋ . 710950_711445 *MICH: which doesn't really ʔuh (.) ⌈2 require ⌉2 a conductor . 711445_713960 *JIM: ⌊2 yeah may- ⌋2 +... 712810_713280 *MICH: (..) you know 713960_714905 I mean light will go through a vacuum . 714905_716540 *MICH: (..) So 716540_718415 (.) ʔuh I think he was 718415_719445 (.) &=in I mean he va- basically invented the radio 719445_722035 (.) &{l=% and stuff like that 722035_723210 you know &}l=% . 723210_723515 *MICH: (..) &=in . 723515_724930 *JIM: &=in It's pretty confusing to me &=ex . 724930_727515 *JIM: but uh 727515_728090 (.) yeah 728090_728405 those (.) those guys are the guys I think that are the heroes 728405_731245 uh 731245_731550 or 731550_731780 (.) that are the unsung heroes . 731780_733275 *JIM: &=in . 733275_733515 *MICH: yeah . 733515_733890 *JIM: You know 733890_734300 (.) the r- +/. 734300_734660 *JIM: the: uh 734660_735330 &=in and s- +/. 735330_736030 *JIM: and and business and 736030_737805 I mean this is a cliche 737805_738845 but 738845_739050 but business has always uh 739050_741025 (..) taken these works 741025_742890 and 742890_743205 (.) and manipulated em 743205_744700 either 744700_745115 (..) to their benefit 745115_746570 or 746570_746895 (..) to our benefit 746895_748585 or to our detriment 748585_749405 or something 749405_749805 f- based on economic 749805_750995 &=in (.) wh- (.) what the obvious 750995_753445 or the +... 753445_753780 *MICH: hm . 753780_754060 *JIM: +, more immediate econo⌈mic ⌉ +... 754060_755635 *MICH: ⌊ &=tsk Right ⌋ . 755315_755890 *MICH: (.) it's like 755890_756255 well 756255_756580 (.) gee 756580_756890 yeah 756890_757040 I know 757040_757330 I know how we can make money with this . 757330_758855 *MICH: (..) I mean you just do it . 758855_760615 *JIM: yeah . 760615_761115 *JIM: (.) &=in &{l=X Well &}l=X that's what I like about fractals . 761115_763060 *JIM: is because uh 763060_764080 &=in uh 764080_765125 (..) with: these new mathematical (..) formulas 765090_769250 &=in ⌈ &=lengthened . 769250_769630 *MICH: ⌊ mhm ⌋ . 769355_769815 *JIM: even ⌉ though 769630_770280 (.) you know 770280_770810 (.) because it's mathematical 770810_772230 and it +/. 772230_772505 *JIM: (.) I- (.) it has to work I guess with: &=in numbers in it . 772505_775710 *JIM: (.) somew- some way . 775710_777175 *JIM: &=in uh 777175_778415 (.) it's opens a door into 778415_779975 (.) what appears to be all: the substance that's underneath the obvious . 779975_783560 *JIM: &=in (..) You know . 783560_784955 *MICH: ⌈ hm ⌉ . 784955_785195 *JIM: ⌊ with ⌋ +/. 784955_785295 *JIM: if if regular math is the obvious 785295_787395 &=in uh: 787395_788340 (.) these fractals seem to 788340_789765 (..) seem to represent 789765_791680 (.) everything: that numbers aren't . 791680_793470 *JIM: &=in ⌈ a:nd uh that's: ⌉ +... 793470_795545 *MICH: ⌊ &=tsk Well 794395_795190 something that ⌋ numbers aren't . 795190_796335 *MICH: I don't think it's everything . 796335_797445 *JIM: &=tsk not everything . 797445_798285 *JIM: ⌈ but s- +... 798285_798750 *MICH: ⌊ cause there are t- ⌋ . 798285_798955 *JIM: but the first ⌉ window 798750_799765 into that . 799765_800390 *MICH: (.) yeah . 800390_800920 *MICH: (..) &=in well 800920_801770 it +/. 801770_802040 *MICH: like +/. 802040_802205 *MICH: every theory is just like- 802205_803185 ʔuh (.) ʔuh_it's a window 803185_804255 and it's also like a model of um (.) reality 804255_806670 and it's really not reality . 806670_807810 *MICH: &=in And uh 807810_809445 (..) like a fractal can g:et really close at do- ʔuh +/. 809445_812115 *MICH: like describing growth patterns 812115_813650 like a ⌈ plant or something . 813650_814730 *JIM: ⌊ Yes . 813805_814415 *JIM: (.) Yes . 814415_814880 *JIM: Right . 814880_815165 *JIM: (.) Right ⌋ . 815165_815750 *MICH: (.) &=in Um ⌉ 815165_815750 but 815750_816040 &=in it's still n- (.) not the totality of a plant . 816040_819105 *JIM: No it isn't 819105_819760 by any stretch . 819760_820535 *JIM: But for mathematics or for science 820535_822410 it's the- +/. 822410_822930 *JIM: ⌈ it's an opportunity for them to +... 822935_824690 *MICH: ⌊ it's the cl:osest th:ing we have ⌋ . 822935_824690 *JIM: &=in ⌉ to 824690_825205 yeah . 825205_825495 *JIM: To get closer to 825495_826790 &=in to the ch:aos 826790_828040 or the 828040_828430 ⌈ or the order ⌉ of chaos . 828430_829975 *MICH: ⌊ Mhm ⌋ . 828405_829270 *MICH: Uh 829975_830200 &=in that exists uh 830155_831640 &=in uh: ʔa- ʔuh ʔas subtext 831640_834640 to our life 834640_835285 to our experience on this planet . 835285_836830 *JIM: And ⌈ when we're ⌉ . 836830_837310 *MICH: ⌊ Mm ⌋ . 836915_837310 *JIM: &=in and when we're say- +/. 837310_838315 *JIM: (..) when we're going to 838315_839095 &=in uh 839095_839645 (.) say blow up the first atomic bomb 839645_841780 &=in and and and 841780_843440 we don't bother 843440_844185 to ask the American people 844185_845590 or the people of the world 845590_846755 if w- if if we mi:nd . 846755_848355 *MICH: ⌈ &=laugh ⌉ . 848330_848730 *JIM: ⌊ &=in ⌋ uh 848360_848955 if there's a chance you know 848955_850250 (.) cause they didn't know for sure 850250_851710 whether (.) it would de⌈stroy the universe or not . 851710_853995 *MICH: ⌊ &{l=@ Yeah . 852625_853370 *MICH: &=in Or not &}l=@ . 853370_853995 *MICH: &=laugh . 853995_854360 *JIM: &=in And ⌉ . 853995_855015 *MICH: &=in It might ⌋ have started a chain reaction that just blew up ⌈2 the whole earth ⌉2 . 854360_857375 *JIM: ⌊2 That's right ⌋2 . 856645_857160 *JIM: And it might very well still have started that chain reaction . 857160_860045 *JIM: And that it's all happening in fractal country 860045_862000 &=in and it ⌈ has ⌉ +... 862000_862860 *MICH: ⌊ Aah ⌋ . 862485_862860 *JIM: and it 862860_863135 and it's manifesting itself in 863135_864995 &=in in disharmony 864995_866255 &=in uh 866255_867155 (.) in 867155_867675 &=in (.) in the (.) deterioration of the planet . 867675_870175 *JIM: We're all worried about the ozone 870175_871670 we're all worried about the uh 871670_872885 ⌈ &=in ⌉ . 872885_873335 *MICH: ⌊ Hm ⌋ . 872885_873335 *JIM: uh: 873275_873815 &=in th- cancer is everywhere 873820_875635 &=in ⌈ uh: ⌉ . 875635_876235 *MICH: ⌊ so you're saying it ⌋ might have done the sa:me ba:d thing 875785_878055 but in ⌈ a sort of more roundabout way: ⌉ . 878055_879880 *JIM: ⌊ it's just that the uni- +/. 878320_879280 *JIM: except that the ⌋ universe is such a complex phenomenon 879280_882190 that it's so deep 882190_882880 it's f:or- +/. 882880_883485 *JIM: f- the fabric that we: are witnessing 883485_885500 through m- science 885500_886450 and through any known ability to understand . 886450_888665 *MICH: ⌈ Mm ⌉ . 888665_889030 *JIM: ⌊ &=in ⌋ is just a thin shell from how deep 888665_890900 &=in this phantasmagorical experience goes 890900_893655 &=in and that when they did that 893655_894800 it's possible that they started a chain reaction 894800_896895 at such a subatomic level 896895_898380 a sub sub sub ⌈ sub subatomic level . 898380_900330 *MICH: ⌊ it's gonna take a while to crumble ⌋ . 899140_900680 *JIM: &=in ⌉ that it'll take a while before it 900330_902105 (.) it 902105_902435 &=in it r:eally 902435_903520 &=in you know 903520_904105 (.) vr- goes &=ROAR &=lengthened 904105_905960 you know 905960_906300 and ⌈ just r:⌉:ips it apart . 906300_907770 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah ⌋ . 906635_907050 *JIM: it might take 907770_908445 &=in (..) it might take 908445_910030 (.) ʔa- a few th- +/. 910030_911000 *JIM: it might take (.) five hundred years . 911000_912535 *JIM: or a thousand years . 912535_913515 *MICH: ⌈ Yeah ⌉ . 913405_913840 *JIM: ⌊ or ⌋ a hundred years . 913515_914360 *JIM: or maybe it's be- +/. 914360_915150 *JIM: w- maybe in v- fifty years . 915150_916825 *JIM: &=in or it might never happen but 916825_918545 &=in it's +/. 918545_919140 *JIM: to me: 919140_919715 &=in tha:t was scientific irresponsibility . 919715_922865 *JIM: &=in A:nd 922865_923960 w- without the knowledge of 923960_925420 (.) of f- 925420_925980 (.) what fractals symbolize 925980_927615 at this point 927615_928335 to me 928335_928795 &=in ʔu- uh 928795_929950 (.) they +/. 929950_930335 *JIM: (.) w- +/. 930335_930600 *JIM: they could make that decision easier . 930600_932360 *JIM: (..) And 932360_933600 &=in with the sci⌈entif- ⌉ +... 933600_935080 *MICH: ⌊ fractals ⌋ could have ⌈2 made the de⌉2cision ⌈3 easier ⌉3 ? 934840_936645 *JIM: ⌊2 &=in ⌋2 935445_935850 ⌊3 No ⌋3 . 936270_936645 *JIM: No . 936645_936970 *JIM: Without the knowledge of fractals . 936970_938395 *JIM: The decision was made easier . 938395_939635 *JIM: ⌈ If frac⌉tals were known at that time . 939635_941755 *MICH: ⌊ oh ⌋ . 939775_940180 *JIM: &=in there might have been a little more caution 941755_943720 because there was 943720_944460 &=in ⌈ there's this window ⌉ . 944460_945645 *MICH: ⌊ but fractals ⌋ don't uh 944755_946340 (.) don't imply any (.) particular morals . 946340_948460 *JIM: &=in well they imply 948460_949735 no they don't imply morals 949735_950725 but they do imply that there's more than the obvious going on . 950725_953270 *MICH: (.) Well all math does that . 953270_954700 *JIM: (..) Uh: 954700_955470 not to me: . 955470_956195 *JIM: (..) uh ⌈ &{l=X it's &}l=X ⌉ +... 956195_957455 *MICH: ⌊ They're just ⌋ another system 957105_958165 that's all 958165_958580 (.) just another model . 958580_959525 *JIM: (..) it's 959470_960670 ʔuh to me it's a model 960660_961800 (.) it's (.) it's a model into the fourth dimension 961800_963880 as opposed to 963880_964745 &=in ⌈ you know . 964745_965370 *MICH: ⌊ Well 965075_965490 (.) actually . 965490_965990 *JIM: the third dimension ⌉ . 965370_966225 *MICH: Ein⌋stein's theory is a model in the fourth dimension 965990_967960 and that's time . 967960_968815 *MICH: (..) &=in (..) Um 968815_970540 (.) but fractal can be applied to 970540_972355 (..) many dimensions or n- +/. 972355_973720 *MICH: (.) or just 973720_974250 (.) I mean 974250_974615 any number of dimensions . 974615_975660 *MICH: it's basically 975660_976470 &=in taking something and dividing it up randomly . 976470_979100 *MICH: (..) or 979100_980370 (.) with some system . 980370_981315 *MICH: (..) &=in it's like nested 981315_983230 (.) &=in nested values . 983230_984920 *MICH: (..) basically . 984920_985835 *MICH: (..) Inside a gallon you have four quarts 985835_988165 inside of four +/. 988165_988900 *MICH: (..) in- (.) inside a quart you have 988900_990715 the certain amount of cups 990715_991580 and then 991580_991805 you know . 991805_992100 *MICH: (..) &=in etcetera etcetera . 992100_993490 *MICH: (.) &=in . 993490_994620 *JIM: (..) &=tsk &=in ⌈ well . 994620_996420 *MICH: ⌊ I don't (.) see how it's ⌋ +... 996025_997210 *JIM: yeah 996420_996755 except it's ⌉ not 996755_997500 it's not uh 997490_998285 it's not so 998285_999215 (.) it's not squa:red 999215_1000415 and it's not as predictable as that . 1000415_1002260 *JIM: I mean it's uh 1002260_1003220 &=in it's 1003220_1003825 (.) it's not predictable at all really . 1003825_1005635 *JIM: (.) It's: 1005635_1006515 (.) it's a it's a found pheno⌈menon ⌉ . 1006515_1008180 *MICH: ⌊ &=in ⌋ Well it's not predictable if you apply random (..) values to the (..) subdivisions . 1007695_1012845 *JIM: (..) The subdivisions have to be random . 1012845_1015160 *JIM: (..) They ha- +/. 1015160_1015560 *JIM: it has to (.) have (.) randomness to it . 1015560_1017675 *JIM: &=in the order 1017675_1018615 I don't think is 1018615_1019315 (..) is understood . 1019315_1020570 *JIM: (..) yet . 1020570_1021740 *JIM: (.) I mean I might be wrong 1021740_1022910 but that's my understanding . 1022910_1024170 *MICH: Hm . 1024170_1024585 *MICH: (..) &=tsk &=in (..) well 1024585_1026595 I th:ink . 1026595_1027755 *JIM: &{l=SMOKING that's why 1027755_1029320 (.) they're calling it 1029320_1030035 (.) the equ- +/. 1030035_1030530 *JIM: they're calling it 1030530_1031330 (.) uh 1031330_1031840 &=in the mathematics of chaos &}l=SMOKING . 1031840_1034070 *MICH: Oh 1034070_1034260 that's a different thing . 1034260_1034905 *MICH: That's not fractals &=ex . 1034905_1035995 *JIM: Yeah 1035995_1036240 that's fractals . 1036240_1036765 *JIM: (..) &=in &{l=SMOKING It includes ⌈ other +... 1036765_1039160 *MICH: ⌊ well fractals can be used ⌋ to describe ⌈2 chaos ⌉2 . 1038665_1040855 *JIM: (.) it includes ⌉ 1039160_1039805 ⌊2 it includes &}l=SMOKING ⌋2 other 1039805_1041190 (.) it i- +/. 1041190_1041400 *JIM: Yes . 1041400_1041725 *JIM: It can . 1041725_1042095 *JIM: And it includes ⌈ other mathematics too ⌉ . 1042095_1043815 *MICH: ⌊ But fractals is separate ⌋ . 1042645_1043815 *MICH: &{l=X yeah &}l=X . 1043815_1044140 *MICH: (..) I mean 1044140_1044640 and chaos is se- +/. 1044640_1045285 *MICH: ʔuh they overlap . 1045285_1046140 *JIM: (..) Mhm . 1046140_1046820 *MICH: &=in (..) Chaos &{l=X I guess &}l=X ⌈ is basically analysis ⌉ of noise . 1046820_1050625 *JIM: ⌊ For- for the scientist ⌋ 1048720_1049885 (.) For the scientist 1050625_1051495 the scientist has never hav- +/. 1051495_1052725 *JIM: has never had a tool 1052725_1053870 where he had that overlap . 1053870_1054915 *JIM: (.) you see . 1054915_1055535 *JIM: &=in . 1055535_1055885 *MICH: Hm . 1055885_1056285 *JIM: (..) see that's w- +/. 1056285_1057130 *JIM: (.) that's the point that I'm trying to get at . 1057130_1058815 *JIM: is is that 1058810_1059235 &=in because the scientific method now has that tool of overlap 1059235_1062485 it's giving them something that they never had before . 1062485_1064790 *MICH: (..) Hm . 1064790_1065435 *JIM: (.) a:nd 1065435_1066330 (..) tha:t is an opportunity for- 1066330_1068605 (.) to meet spirituality . 1068605_1069925 *MICH: (..) Yeah well 1069925_1071580 (.) there's uʔ- +... 1071580_1072270 *JIM: (.) ⌈ in physics ⌉ . 1072270_1073170 *MICH: ⌊ &=laugh There's oppor⌋tunities to meet spirituality 1072270_1074845 (.) twenty-four hours a day wherever you go . 1074845_1076405 *MICH: &=in just by being alive . 1076410_1077750 *MICH: &=in If they don't wanna see it 1077750_1078815 they're not gonna see it in fractals . 1078815_1080130 *JIM: Well yeah 1080130_1080530 a lot of people will . 1080530_1081335 *JIM: A lot of people will uh 1081335_1082240 it'll dawn on them 1082240_1082985 because (.) they (.) follow (.) the scientific impulse 1082985_1085440 &=in and 1085440_1086285 (.) fractals may (.) be the very thing that boggles them out enough 1086285_1089280 where they have to do some serious questioning about things . 1089280_1091735 *JIM: (..) is my theory . 1091735_1092990 *MICH: (.) ⌈ Yeah ⌉ . 1092990_1093815 *JIM: ⌊ You know ⌋ . 1092990_1093890 *MICH: (.) Maybe . 1093890_1094390 *MICH: (.) They'll probably find it in something 1094390_1095575 if there fractals weren't there . 1095575_1096890 *MICH: &=in I think um 1096890_1097855 (.) &=in it's like all the (.) the ideas that we have 1097855_1099990 throughout the ages 1099990_1100755 and the various 1100755_1101565 (..) &=in they're just sort of echos of uh: 1101565_1103910 (.) the pa:st . 1103910_1104595 *MICH: And they come (..) under different names and things . 1104595_1106935 *MICH: Just like um 1106935_1107650 (.) &=in the latest power now is corporations . 1107650_1110115 *MICH: Right ? 1110135_1110410 *MICH: And before that it was: 1110405_1111565 (..) like uh governments 1111565_1113380 before that it was 1113380_1114170 (.) principalities 1114170_1115095 (..) &=in before that it was gangs 1115095_1117170 you know . 1117170_1117545 *MICH: ⌈ &=laugh ⌉ . 1117550_1118100 *JIM: ⌊ &=laugh &=laugh ⌋ &=laugh &=laugh 1117550_1118285 And tri:bes . 1118285_1119100 *MICH: And gangs are coming back 1119100_1120150 now 1120150_1120400 you know ? 1120400_1120755 *MICH: s- but ⌈ uh ⌉ . 1120755_1121360 *JIM: ⌊ God 1120945_1121260 are ⌋ they ever . 1121260_1121845 *MICH: &=in um . 1121845_1122940 *JIM: (.) it's unbelievable . 1122940_1123935 *MICH: And knowledge 1123935_1124425 and an:d (.) the pursuit of um 1124425_1126265 (.) spirituality 1126265_1127375 (..) has taken ⌈ on ⌉ many forms . 1127375_1129105 *JIM: ⌊ &=COUGH ⌋ . 1127930_1128470 *MICH: (..) And if a person wants to find it in 1129105_1131795 (.) in something they believe in 1131795_1132825 and they believe in science 1132825_1133820 they'll find it in science . 1133820_1134845 *JIM: (..) well that's very true 1134845_1136930 but I mean 1136930_1137430 uh- +/. 1137430_1137665 *JIM: ʔthat +/. 1137665_1137880 *JIM: I thi:nk that that +/. 1137880_1138990 *JIM: (.) that people who find spirituality in science 1138990_1141265 as their (.) f- sole spiritual &=in source are 1141265_1144575 (.) &=in people that are fucking up the planet [% laugh] . 1144575_1146600 *JIM: &=in You know ? 1146600_1147740 *JIM: (.) I don't think science is the +/. 1147740_1149070 *JIM: I don't think science can be God . 1149070_1150605 *JIM: &=in I've been watching Two Thousand And One lately . 1150605_1152540 *JIM: You know ? 1152540_1152855 *JIM: I mean that's what that's all +/. 1152855_1153660 *JIM: i- +/. 1153660_1153875 *JIM: that's not what it's all about 1153875_1154800 but that's a 1154800_1155330 &=in a major theme in it . 1155330_1156805 *JIM: you know 1156805_1157125 that 1157130_1157310 (.) the race between the human and the 1157310_1159075 and the tech⌈no- ⌉ +... 1159075_1159915 *MICH: ⌊ mhm ⌋ . 1159540_1159925 *JIM: (.) and its 1159915_1160300 and its technological &=in manifestation of 1160300_1162970 &=in well ʔI- +/. 1162970_1163975 *JIM: you know 1163975_1164200 I think that 1164200_1164695 ⌈ we built &=ex ⌉ +... 1164695_1165425 *MICH: ⌊ it's like ⌋ are we gonna be part of it 1164875_1166095 or are we gonna make it . 1166095_1166995 *JIM: &=in Is it gonna m- (.) do us 1166995_1168450 or are we gonna do it . 1168460_1169450 *JIM: you know 1169450_1169730 &=in is our creation 1169730_1170690 it's like the Frankenstein myth . 1170690_1171815 *JIM: &=in Is our creation going to uh 1171815_1173855 &=in destroy us ? 1173855_1174760 *JIM: or are we ⌈ going to continue ⌉ . 1174760_1176295 *MICH: ⌊ Yeah uh 1175095_1175340 look at what's on TV ⌋ . 1175340_1176305 *MICH: &=laugh &=laugh . 1176305_1176760 *JIM: yeah . 1176760_1176890 *JIM: ⌈ I just put it on ⌉ . 1176890_1177610 *MICH: ⌊ &=in Man⌋delbrot . 1176890_1177840 *MICH: (.) ⌈2 oh . 1177840_1177990 *JIM: ⌊2 I just put it ⌋2 on . 1177840_1178705 *MICH: okay ⌉2 . 1177990_1178705 *JIM: (.) ⌈3 Yeah ⌉3 . 1178705_1178995 *MICH: ⌊3 I see ⌋3 . 1178935_1179340 *MICH: (..) &=tsk I thought they were showing that on the uh (.) ads 1179340_1182065 for some reason . 1182065_1182690 *JIM: &=laugh &=laugh . 1182690_1183035 *MICH: (.) &=in . 1183035_1183700 *JIM: &=in ⌈ ʔuh: ⌉ . 1183700_1185260 *MICH: ⌊ A little too hip ⌋ for TV . 1184530_1186005 *JIM: &=in Little too hip 1186005_1186905 yeah . 1186905_1187330 *MICH: (..) So they're color-cycling right now . 1187330_1189450 *MICH: (..) Does it zoom later ? 1189450_1190585 *MICH: ⌈ I guess it must ⌉ . 1190585_1191300 *JIM: ⌊ &=in Yeah 1190580_1191175 I've got ⌋ zooms on here too . 1191175_1192410 *JIM: (..) &=tsk ⌈2 and I ⌉2 +... 1192415_1194600 *MICH: ⌊2 Where'd you tape ⌋2 it from . 1194175_1195080 *JIM: (.) &=tsk uh 1195080_1195685 (.) This one's Fractal Fantasy 1195685_1197170 which is: 1197170_1197650 for sale . 1197650_1198175 *MICH: (..) Hunh . 1198175_1199310 *JIM: (.) and the other one is uh 1199310_1200675 (..) Fractal Zooms 1200675_1201685 which I don't think is available 1201685_1203070 &=in (..) &=BURP b- and then I've got a uh: test film from (.) IBM laboratories . 1203070_1207550 *JIM: of uh 1207550_1208090 f- uh 1208090_1208705 &=in uh 1208705_1209605 (.) &=in taking a Julia set into the fourth dimension . 1209605_1212050 *MICH: (.) Hm . 1212050_1212660 *JIM: (..) which th- +/. 1212660_1213890 *JIM: and then they zoom through it 1213890_1214975 it's pretty f- +/. 1214975_1215420 *JIM: pretty fantastic looking . 1215420_1216800 @End